Why we pay top $ for games.

[The Joker]

Let's start with piracy:
The thing is, Piracy mite be out of hand but the video game industry is super lucrative. I always thought that companies would be worried about piracy but the more I look at it the more it seems that they don't give a crap!!

Read this following artical.
http://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=85827

Why do we pay upto R1000 for a title:
Gaming companies know that the drones(fools like me and you) will keep buying because we are addicted to games and gaming. We all say, there is no way im spending that on a game(im one of those people) Yet we always end up buying it..WHY????
Im sure there are quite a few guys on the forum that'll agree with that. TELL ME IM WRONG?

The only way pricing will drop for all platforms is if we, the gamers, the drones, stop feeding our gaming addiction

Your thoughts on this subject will be greatly appreciated guys!!

[Isengard]

Well I can say one thing, as much as I like games I suspect I'll be buying even less in this current climate. If other people have the same sentiments as me then the gaming industry could eventually feel the knock on effect of their pricing. While I hope a scenario like that plays out it appears that as times get tougher people depend more and more on gaming to provide them an escape from it all.

[Mephisto_Helix]

I don't pirate games nor do I buy a lot of titles ...... I primarily got an Xbox so that I could start renting games instead of paying the ridiculous prices. The more they go up, the less games for PC I buy and the more I rent for Xbox ..... bloody greedy buggers won't get my cash.

[phoenix]

Let's get the ball rolling with some waffle form phoenix, shall we?

Joker, can you provide information as to how much money goes into developing a game, paying artists, programmers, etc, marketing costs, bribing journalists to come and give favourable previews of games and then the distribution costs of the games in question.

I think we need to ascertain just how much of a profit game developers and publishing houses are making before we lay into them. ;-) [Not trying to picj a fight, just wanting to clear things up, you see,]

I do know that the reason console games tend to be more costly than their pc counterparts is because developers have to pay the likes of Microsoft, Nintendo and
SONY royalties.

As for weening ourselves off our gaming addiction, I am not sure that I could go without games altogether. What I would probably do if I thought that my boycotting new game releases [which I do anyway] would make a difference would be to revisit old favourites and poke around for free games or relatively inexpensive games on the internet.Granted, many of these don't have the spectacular graphics of some many commercial games, but that is only part of what makes my gaming experience pleasurable.Had I a credit card I would probably have bought and downloaded few Popcap games by now, but their java equivalents aren't bad.They're also free to play.

[The Joker]

Well I can say one thing, as much as I like games I suspect I'll be buying even less in this current climate. If other people have the same sentiments as me then the gaming industry could eventually feel the knock on effect of their pricing. While I hope a scenario like that plays out it appears that as times get tougher people depend more and more on gaming to provide them an escape from it all.

That's exactly what is needed. People should stop buying the over priced games(i don't really see this happening)before we will see a change!!
Its sad but true!!

[phoenix]

Gamers against Daylight Robbery Facebook Group, anyone?

[Vixe]

I guess this applies with CPU's and GPU's, and then again any product on the market! I am sorry to say but this is how supply and demand works :\ I am not agreeing with it, I am just saying that this is how it is.

[The Joker]

Let's get the ball rolling with some waffle form phoenix, shall we?

Joker, can you provide information as to how much money goes into developing a game, paying artists, programmers, etc, marketing costs, bribing journalists to come and give favourable previews of games and then the distribution costs of the games in question.

I think we need to ascertain just how much of a profit game developers and publishing houses are making before we lay into them. ;-) [Not trying to picj a fight, just wanting to clear things up, you see,]

I do know that the reason console games tend to be more costly than their pc counterparts is because developers have to pay the likes of Microsoft, Nintendo and
SONY royalties.

As for weening ourselves off our gaming addiction, I am not sure that I could go without games altogether. What I would probably do if I thought that my boycotting new game releases [which I do anyway] would make a difference would be to revisit old favourites and poke around for free games or relatively inexpensive games on the internet.Granted, many of these don't have the spectacular graphics of some many commercial games, but that is only part of what makes my gaming experience pleasurable.Had I a credit card I would probably have bought and downloaded few Popcap games by now, but their java equivalents aren't bad.They're also free to play.

Finally a debate..lol!!
You can't offend me dude,this is what this thread was made for:D
I am currently doing research into the topic but I can tell you that the gaming industry is expected to reach 68 billion dollars by 2012
It'll basically triple in the next 3 years, and that when the rest of the world is suffering from a global economic meltdown!!

"Analyst Anita Frazier for the research organization revealed some rather interesting statistics throughout the presentation, one of the most striking of just how many gamers are out there now: turns out this year we've got 61 percent more than we did last. Interestingly, 58 percent of the U.S. population from 13 and up plays video games, this keeping in mind people spend more on games than any other entertainment medium (27 percent)"


Gaming industry rakes in more than 20 Billion in 2008

It’s hard to tell from all the closures, layoffs and other bad financial info we talk about all day but according to research firm NPD Group, the video game industry pulled down huge profits in 2008.

According to NPD’s stats, computer, video game and peripheral sales added up to $21 billion in 2008 with entertainment software comprising up to $11.7 billion of that. That’s a jump of more than 23 percent from 2007, although it probably does little to console the numerous people in the industry that lost jobs recently.

Also interesting to note is that more than half of those software sales are considered “family-friendly” titles rated Everyone 10 and under by the Entertainment Software Ratings Board. Teen-rated games made up 26.7 percent of sales and mature-rated games accounted for 15.9 percent of sales.

Nintendo, which has been working to corner the family and casual market with its Wii home console and DS portable system, has to like looking at those numbers. Make no mistake, the most familiar and typically well-received mature franchises are still doing just fine. Grand Theft Auto IV and Call of Duty:World at War were among 2008’s best sellers.

Software sales on consoles amounted to $8.9 billion, selling 189 million units. PC games sold $701 million worth, moving 29.1 million units and portables earned an impressive $2.1 billion by selling 79.5 million units.

In further analyzing the numbers, NPD Group’s stats show that the rich are getting richer. In the NPD report, industry analyst Anita Frazier said when this console generation launched in 2005, the top 20 games of the year sales wise made up 9 percent of overall sales. In 2008, the top 20games accounted for 15 percent

This artical is also a good read.
http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6631456.html

So even though they are closing down plants and people in the gaming industry are losing their jobs. I qoute"The rich are getting richer"

[Xmnsx]

Does a group like that exist or are u gonna start one phoenix?

[The Joker]

They are definitly raking in huge amounts of profit mate.
They are still putting out awsome titles and they'll keep doing it because they get paid top dollar for it. Do you think any business that's running at a loss would push up the prices and risk losing more clients??? Definitly not mate!!

[The Joker]

Gamers against Daylight Robbery Facebook Group, anyone?

Start one mate!!
Its about time we stand up!!

[SpoOkie]

Well the production cost of making games has gone up a lot the past couple of years. I remember paying R250 for Mortal Kombat Trilogy way back in 1998.

To be honest A movie ticket in the states costs $12.50 A Game $40-60

Here a movie ticket is R40. Compare that to a game of R400-R600. ;) (not relevant but does give some perspective to the situation)

BTW, I can go into a whole economic explanation as to why most games are expensive and will continue to be. But it basically comes down to the fact that they don't know how to manage money.

[The Joker]

Well the production cost of making games has gone up a lot the past couple of years. I remember paying R250 for Mortal Kombat Trilogy way back in 1998.

To be honest A movie ticket in the states costs $12.50 A Game $40-60

Here a movie ticket is R40. Compare that to a game of R400-R600. ;) (not relevant but does give some perspective to the situation)

BTW, I can go into a whole economic explanation as to why most games are expensive and will continue to be. But it basically comes down to the fact that they don't know how to manage money.

So please explain dude??

[SpoOkie]

Will type it out tomorrow morning and post it :p bit lazy atm. Don't know all the terms off by heart as well.

[The Joker]

Will type it out tomorrow morning and post it :p bit lazy atm. Don't know all the terms off by heart as well.

Its cool mate..all input is much appreciated. As you know this is a hot topic and we need some answers..even though i think its inexcusable to charge what these companies charge:D

[Isengard]

I don't want to hear anymore excuses, piracy this, current generation development costs that. If they want to sell more games and keep us gamers happy they better take a hard look at their current pricing schemes.

[The Joker]

I don't want to hear anymore excuses, piracy this, current generation development costs that. If they want to sell more games and keep us gamers happy they better take a hard look at their current pricing schemes.

+10
I agree with you completely mate.

[Tinman]

Well, if you look the facts, massive companies like EA and THQ are posting massive losses at the moment.

I do agree that anything over R400 for any game is probably too much, but that's just my opinion. Developers have to start looking at alternative ways of making cash, for example, in game advertising.

I will never pay R900 for a game. R700 is pushing it. In fact, if I see a R400 price tag on a PC game I walk away.

[phoenix]

Does a group like that exist or are u gonna start one phoenix?

Not that I know of, Xmnsx.

I think it would need a snappier title or perhaps a clever acronym though.

Bandwidth concerns aside, what are your views on Digital Distribution Platforms such as STEAM,PSN,Xbox Live Market Place [not sure of the name] and WiiWare?

I have heard that there are several pretty good games to be had for reasonable prices
[Braid being an example] in such places.

I would imagine that this medium would cut distribution costs and perhaps even marketing expenses as news of worthwhile games finds its way around online communities.

[The Joker]

Well, if you look the facts, massive companies like EA and THQ are posting massive losses at the moment.

I do agree that anything over R400 for any game is probably too much, but that's just my opinion. Developers have to start looking at alternative ways of making cash, for example, in game advertising.

I will never pay R900 for a game. R700 is pushing it. In fact, if I see a R400 price tag on a PC game I walk away.

That's a brilliant idea mate!!

[Isengard]

Well, if you look the facts, massive companies like EA and THQ are posting massive losses at the moment.

I do agree that anything over R400 for any game is probably too much, but that's just my opinion. Developers have to start looking at alternative ways of making cash, for example, in game advertising.

I will never pay R900 for a game. R700 is pushing it. In fact, if I see a R400 price tag on a PC game I walk away.

Funny that a lot of companies like for example EA are already doing this yet no benefits get passed down to the consumer :confused:.

[lilDeath]

The only way to make a stand and bring your / our point across about high game prices is to hit them where it hurts the most - their pocket.

So, we have the power as a collective to vote with our wallets. Individuals won't have any power.
There will be parents that will continue to buy, to satisfy their kiddies, but that is the same with everything. People will do what they want, when they want, how they want.
There will be ppl that will just scoff at this and continue buying anyway.
They can, it is what the majority of people do, that counts.

TO be frank - I am actually very surprised that several posters have posted over the last few weeks of the amounts of money they are spending on games. It's like money is being splashed / thrown around, without a care or worry in the world.
The moment a game is launched it is followed by posts like "OMG, must have it", "Excellent, it is expensive, but I must feed the addiction", etc. There are many such posts on this very forum.
So, it appears people are not too bothered by the high prices and pay it anyway. What was that about Killzone 2, it costs R1000?

Really now, who in their right damn mind will pay that for a game? I won't. I believe there is a reason for that though. I believe it is the mindset.

Whenever I want something I look at the price first. If it is not in line with what I think is correct, I walk away. I shop around for specials. I very rarely buy games straight off the bat, the moment it launches.
The only games I did buy immediately were the Guild Wars games, and then I still shopped around. I even canceled my kalahari.net pre-order when I saw they were more expensive than Take2, checked overseas, checked the online shop, dollar exchange, etc.

I was brought up to look after my money and I continue to do that still. Luckily I don't have to worry too much about it anymore, since I can afford it (with very hard work in my younger years I might add), but I still shop with my head and not my heart <- That's dangerous business.

I only allow myself to shop with my heart when it involves presents for special ladies. ;)

Anyway, as I was saying, if you are going to be serious about this, then stand by it, don't falter. Believe in the cause. If something is too expensive, then don't buy it. Wait for specials. Things are not going to change overnight anyway.
This is where self-control comes in, because I firmly believe there are buyers that simply buy it just to be part of the craze and latest and greatest of gaming. It is an addiction of sorts, just like people that upgrade their 20k pc's every year with the latest and greatest 10k cpu.

OF course, this behaviour (and the high prices) can push people into the piracy direction as well, but that is another topic.

Also remember, with any action, there is a reaction, so in making a stand it might make matters worse. We already have a current case of XBox Live for instance.
What is MS's reason for not supporting / launching Live in SA? - "Not enough people, community too small to warrant the effort / expenditure"
This can potentially get even worse if people don't buy the titles - "SA don't buy titles anymore, so why should we worry about them, they only make 0.5% of our total revenue", etc.

Just to reiterate my point even further about control and the mindset behind buying games I will share this with you....
I do have some stages where I also go a bit crazy, just last month I was in an eBay bidding war for a very rare collector's edition game. My bid was over R2000 at the time (shipping included) ... and the auction was closing... I was literally sitting there at 3am in the morning, wondering if I should submit my next bid, I am sure I would have won it, but then decided.. screw it, this is not worth spending that much money on.
That's the 'limit' I had in my head and I proceeded to log off and go to bed, strangely at peace with my decision, even though I 'lost' in the auction.

To get back - A boycott is possible, but you need the numbers in support, then you have the power. Otherwise, you might as well peepee into the wind.

Anyway, just my thoughts on what I think of the subject at hand.

pc

[Isengard]

The only way to make a stand and bring your / our point across about high game prices is to hit them where it hurts the most - their pocket.

So, we have the power as a collective to vote with our wallets. Individuals won't have any power.
There will be parents that will continue to buy, to satisfy their kiddies, but that is the same with everything. People will do what they want, when they want, how they want.
There will be ppl that will just scoff at this and continue buying anyway.
They can, it is what the majority of people do, that counts.

TO be frank - I am actually very surprised that several posters have posted over the last few weeks of the amounts of money they are spending on games. It's like money is being splashed / thrown around, without a care or worry in the world.
The moment a game is launched it is followed by posts like "OMG, must have it", "Excellent, it is expensive, but I must feed the addiction", etc. There are many such posts on this very forum.
So, it appears people are not too bothered by the high prices and pay it anyway. What was that about Killzone 2, it costs R1000?

Really now, who in their right damn mind will pay that for a game? I won't. I believe there is a reason for that though. I believe it is the mindset.

Whenever I want something I look at the price first. If it is not in line with what I think is correct, I walk away. I shop around for specials. I very rarely buy games straight off the bat, the moment it launches.
The only games I did buy immediately were the Guild Wars games, and then I still shopped around. I even canceled my kalahari.net pre-order when I saw they were more expensive than Take2, checked overseas, checked the online shop, dollar exchange, etc.

I was brought up to look after my money and I continue to do that still. Luckily I don't have to worry too much about it anymore, since I can afford it (with very hard work in my younger years I might add), but I still shop with my head and not my heart <- That's dangerous business.

I only allow myself to shop with my heart when it involves presents for special ladies. ;)

Anyway, as I was saying, if you are going to be serious about this, then stand by it, don't falter. Believe in the cause. If something is too expensive, then don't buy it. Wait for specials. Things are not going to change overnight anyway.
This is where self-control comes in, because I firmly believe there are buyers that simply buy it just to be part of the craze and latest and greatest of gaming. It is an addiction of sorts, just like people that upgrade their 20k pc's every year with the latest and greatest 10k cpu.

OF course, this behaviour (and the high prices) can push people into the piracy direction as well, but that is another topic.

Also remember, with any action, there is a reaction, so in making a stand it might make matters worse. We already have a current case of XBox Live for instance.
What is MS's reason for not supporting / launching Live in SA? - "Not enough people, community too small to warrant the effort / expenditure"
This can potentially get even worse if people don't buy the titles - "SA don't buy titles anymore, so why should we worry about them, they only make 0.5% of our total revenue", etc.

Just to reiterate my point even further about control and the mindset behind buying games I will share this with you....
I do have some stages where I also go a bit crazy, just last month I was in an eBay bidding war for a very rare collector's edition game. My bid was over R2000 at the time (shipping included) ... and the auction was closing... I was literally sitting there at 3am in the morning, wondering if I should submit my next bid, I am sure I would have won it, but then decided.. screw it, this is not worth spending that much money on.
That's the 'limit' I had in my head and I proceeded to log off and go to bed, strangely at peace with my decision, even though I 'lost' in the auction.

To get back - A boycott is possible, but you need the numbers in support, then you have the power. Otherwise, you might as well peepee into the wind.

Anyway, just my thoughts on what I think of the subject at hand.

pc

Very well said :D. I just hope people will be clever and realise they need to do something about it or endure these prices forever.

[Shamrock]

Facebook groups ftl.

It's not exactly a problem of pricing, though. Not in my opinion, at least. Look at it this way...games can be incredibly fun, and some games are just amazing. You get a real feel for the characters, get into the story, really love it. There are games like that, genuinely original and fun.

Now take a game like GTA IV. Brilliant advertising. They don't sell out -- imagine if EA owned Rockstar; the radio stations would have real ads in them, which would make me feel ripped off. But Rockstar do make decent games, and they built up a hype about their game and lived up to it (so I've heard, haven't played it myself) and make half a billion US in one week. Genius.

Now look at Devil May Cry. The first game was great. Then they made 2 and it got worse. Then 3 and it got worse. Then 4 and I just wouldn't trust anything made by them.

Look at Final Fantasy X. It was a good, fun game. Not great, but fun. Then they continue an ended storyline with X-2 and mess it up. That's looking for more money, that's selling out your story at the expense of reputation, trust and work etiquette.

If Starcraft II came out in one week and it was priced R400, would you not buy it because of the price? I don't like buying games for R400, but Starcraft II or Diablo III and I'll take it. And that's because Blizzard impress me. They release games when they're ready, they take their time, and I'm willing to pay their prices for a great game. 11.5 million users, they're doing something right.

Now I hate EA with a passion. They do a good job of some things, but I also see it as being a profit-motivated company, that and nothing else. Take every sports game...Madden NFL 2009. For the love of god, I remember playing NFL Blitz in '98, I think it was. Then Rugby. And cricket. And every other sport, every year. Call me crazy, but I'm not buying a new rugby game each year for a slight change. Wanna know why they aren't making money? Too many releases, too little care.

If they got me hyped up about something, they promoted brilliantly, got everyone anticipating it, held out until they felt the game was good to go, then released a great product which I love, and kept doing that, I'd have absolutely no problem paying R400 for a game of theirs.

People don't complain about a fairish price for a brilliant game, they just don't. It's worth it if the game keeps you entertained.

[Keldarza]

On in game advertising: So the "runs best on an intel" and the "Nvidia" logo which is like almost every game isn't enough? I think in game advertising is a terrible idea. But ultimately I think that it's going that way.

My reasons for the collapse of gaming and increase in price.

EAism: EA suck in one simple regard - the pump out games to death. NFS, dead to me, C&C is getting a release every year now it'll soon be dead [heck, RA2, my most favourite RTS of all time is tainted by the terror that is RA3]. Sims etc etc etc. EA is just pushing games out and they are losing quality to a point you wont buy them coz you have 15 just like them and they only get worse. Ultimately it gets over the threshold of Sales/Costs for NFS 10. Same thing with Tomb raider, it's becoming a waste to invest in those brands. EA has failed to see this.

Making a stand: If you dont buy, and there are poor sales, the gaming industry calls "pirate". Sales aren't good MUST be that everyone is pirating the game. Instead of re-evaluating WHY they are losing sales they call pirate.

On piracy: Pirates are a fact of life. Gaming should accept that it will happen. Lets face the facts - Securom, starforce etc etc are not open and free projects, the imprinting and secuirity costs ALOT of money to do. So in your R400 game, best cast is that R20 has gone to anti-pirate solutions. And the truth is most games are cracked before they are even on the shelves. The R20 per game extra for the 'protection' is a waste. Put simple protection on the game and save the R20 [Think about it, 100 000 sold would give an extra R2million income...].

Combating pirates is best done with value. Give people a reason to own an original over a pirated copy. Time and time again you feel punished by online activations, cd-keys, time activations, install limits - all because you BOUGHT the game, meanwhile the pirates are laughing as they have bypassed all these annoyances. (Really, an install limit makes my BOUGHT game a brick after 3 installs? No wonder spore is the most pirated game ever)

[The Joker]

The only way to make a stand and bring your / our point across about high game prices is to hit them where it hurts the most - their pocket.

So, we have the power as a collective to vote with our wallets. Individuals won't have any power.
There will be parents that will continue to buy, to satisfy their kiddies, but that is the same with everything. People will do what they want, when they want, how they want.
There will be ppl that will just scoff at this and continue buying anyway.
They can, it is what the majority of people do, that counts.

TO be frank - I am actually very surprised that several posters have posted over the last few weeks of the amounts of money they are spending on games. It's like money is being splashed / thrown around, without a care or worry in the world.
The moment a game is launched it is followed by posts like "OMG, must have it", "Excellent, it is expensive, but I must feed the addiction", etc. There are many such posts on this very forum.
So, it appears people are not too bothered by the high prices and pay it anyway. What was that about Killzone 2, it costs R1000?

Really now, who in their right damn mind will pay that for a game? I won't. I believe there is a reason for that though. I believe it is the mindset.

Whenever I want something I look at the price first. If it is not in line with what I think is correct, I walk away. I shop around for specials. I very rarely buy games straight off the bat, the moment it launches.
The only games I did buy immediately were the Guild Wars games, and then I still shopped around. I even canceled my kalahari.net pre-order when I saw they were more expensive than Take2, checked overseas, checked the online shop, dollar exchange, etc.

I was brought up to look after my money and I continue to do that still. Luckily I don't have to worry too much about it anymore, since I can afford it (with very hard work in my younger years I might add), but I still shop with my head and not my heart <- That's dangerous business.

I only allow myself to shop with my heart when it involves presents for special ladies. ;)

Anyway, as I was saying, if you are going to be serious about this, then stand by it, don't falter. Believe in the cause. If something is too expensive, then don't buy it. Wait for specials. Things are not going to change overnight anyway.
This is where self-control comes in, because I firmly believe there are buyers that simply buy it just to be part of the craze and latest and greatest of gaming. It is an addiction of sorts, just like people that upgrade their 20k pc's every year with the latest and greatest 10k cpu.

OF course, this behaviour (and the high prices) can push people into the piracy direction as well, but that is another topic.

Also remember, with any action, there is a reaction, so in making a stand it might make matters worse. We already have a current case of XBox Live for instance.
What is MS's reason for not supporting / launching Live in SA? - "Not enough people, community too small to warrant the effort / expenditure"
This can potentially get even worse if people don't buy the titles - "SA don't buy titles anymore, so why should we worry about them, they only make 0.5% of our total revenue", etc.

Just to reiterate my point even further about control and the mindset behind buying games I will share this with you....
I do have some stages where I also go a bit crazy, just last month I was in an eBay bidding war for a very rare collector's edition game. My bid was over R2000 at the time (shipping included) ... and the auction was closing... I was literally sitting there at 3am in the morning, wondering if I should submit my next bid, I am sure I would have won it, but then decided.. screw it, this is not worth spending that much money on.
That's the 'limit' I had in my head and I proceeded to log off and go to bed, strangely at peace with my decision, even though I 'lost' in the auction.

To get back - A boycott is possible, but you need the numbers in support, then you have the power. Otherwise, you might as well peepee into the wind.

Anyway, just my thoughts on what I think of the subject at hand.

pc

Some really good points mate.
That' why a facebook group was created last nite. If enough people join we can really make a stand for it!!

[The Joker]

On in game advertising: So the "runs best on an intel" and the "Nvidia" logo which is like almost every game isn't enough? I think in game advertising is a terrible idea. But ultimately I think that it's going that way.

My reasons for the collapse of gaming and increase in price.

EAism: EA suck in one simple regard - the pump out games to death. NFS, dead to me, C&C is getting a release every year now it'll soon be dead [heck, RA2, my most favourite RTS of all time is tainted by the terror that is RA3]. Sims etc etc etc. EA is just pushing games out and they are losing quality to a point you wont buy them coz you have 15 just like them and they only get worse. Ultimately it gets over the threshold of Sales/Costs for NFS 10. Same thing with Tomb raider, it's becoming a waste to invest in those brands. EA has failed to see this.

Making a stand: If you dont buy, and there are poor sales, the gaming industry calls "pirate". Sales aren't good MUST be that everyone is pirating the game. Instead of re-evaluating WHY they are losing sales they call pirate.

On piracy: Pirates are a fact of life. Gaming should accept that it will happen. Lets face the facts - Securom, starforce etc etc are not open and free projects, the imprinting and secuirity costs ALOT of money to do. So in your R400 game, best cast is that R20 has gone to anti-pirate solutions. And the truth is most games are cracked before they are even on the shelves. The R20 per game extra for the 'protection' is a waste. Put simple protection on the game and save the R20 [Think about it, 100 000 sold would give an extra R2million income...].

Combating pirates is best done with value. Give people a reason to own an original over a pirated copy. Time and time again you feel punished by online activations, cd-keys, time activations, install limits - all because you BOUGHT the game, meanwhile the pirates are laughing as they have bypassed all these annoyances. (Really, an install limit makes my BOUGHT game a brick after 3 installs? No wonder spore is the most pirated game ever)

Piracy won't die out, we all know that but if these stupid companies make for some good prices, people would rather by the original just because of a moral sense to do so.
I try to only buy original but unfortunatly they are pushing me to start buying
the copies. R100 vs R1000...Its not a hard choice :eek:

[bokka1]

I only buy originals but won't pay more than R600. I trade and buy second hand which does not cost me an arm and a leg.

[The Joker]

I only buy originals but won't pay more than R600. I trade and buy second hand which does not cost me an arm and a leg.

That's still alot to pay for a game mate.
The 2nd hand idea works well, cause I do that myself but sometimes you wait 4 months for the title your looking for:eek:
Wich is useless!!

[SpoOkie]

Should I really type out that entire story about input costs and such? It will take a while to get all the research done but I can do a "rough" draft for now ;)

[The Joker]

Should I really type out that entire story about input costs and such? It will take a while to get all the research done but I can do a "rough" draft for now ;)

It'll be mucch appreciated mate:D

[SpoOkie]

Ok will start now :)

[Jan]

Well, if you look the facts, massive companies like EA and THQ are posting massive losses at the moment.

I was just going to mention that. Things are not going well for all games companies at the moment. I think Activision also posted a first quarter loss. I hope StarCraft 2 goes well for them...


I will never pay R900 for a game. R700 is pushing it. In fact, if I see a R400 price tag on a PC game I walk away.

QFT.


Bandwidth concerns aside, what are your views on Digital Distribution Platforms such as STEAM,PSN,Xbox Live Market Place [not sure of the name] and WiiWare?

...

I would imagine that this medium would cut distribution costs and perhaps even marketing expenses as news of worthwhile games finds its way around online communities.

One would imagine that, wouldn't one? And yet both Steam and Impulse (I'm a PC gamer so I don't know much about the console digital distribution channels) charge ~$50 US for new AAA titles -- the same as you would pay in store for them most of the time.

Just about every week they run specials on certain titles -- but you can bet your pants it won't be on the 'just released' stuff. And don't get me started on the Copy Protection scheme Steam forces on all products delivered through Steam. Anything you buy through Steam (or Impulse, I think) you also don't have the option to resell.


The only games I did buy immediately were the Guild Wars games, and then I still shopped around.

I bought mine all Collector's Editions through BT Games and paid R450 for a box chock full of awesome stuff. Now, less than two years later that's what I'm being asked to fork over for a DVD case with a single disc and maybe an inlay.


To get back - A boycott is possible, but you need the numbers in support, then you have the power.

Rise up and revolt, citizens! This is a revolution!


If Starcraft II came out in one week and it was priced R400, would you not buy it because of the price? I don't like buying games for R400, but Starcraft II or Diablo III and I'll take it.

D3 I'd probably pay R400 for, depending on what you get in the game box, but not a cent more. SC2:WoL I wouldn't buy for more than R349 but for reasons beyond the scope of this thread... I think I'll start a separate "Why is Blizzard intent on ruining SC2?" thread in a moment.


I trade and buy second hand which does not cost me an arm and a leg.

I bought the first StarCraft second hand from Cash Converters for R120. Nowadays CD keys are associated with online profiles, linked to Steam accounts, and all kinds of other stuff that makes it almost impossible to resell.

F.E.A.R. 2 and DoW2 both use Steamworks as DRM meaning that the PC versions can't be traded or resold. I've associated my StarCraft and Diablo 2 CD keys with my Blizzard Account so if I were to sell those games then whichever sucker bought them from me won't be able to do the same.

[SpoOkie]

Why You Pay $$$ for games.

I’ll approach this from an economics stand point. Most people don’t think about all the costs that go into making a game, and most of the times forget about a couple of stuff. I have never worked for a developer/publishing company so these are all estimates and my personal guesses as I have done no research to substantiate this. I shall also be looking at a company making its first game, let’s have 30 people working on this for arguments sake. If you however see where I am incorrect please correct me ;) So let’s begin.

Development cycle 20 months.
Rent: $1000 per month x20 + Water + Electricity = $200 per month x 20
Salaries: $8000 per month on average x20 x 35
Hardware: 15 High end Nvidia Quadro pc’s for coders and modellers + 20 other pc’s for the rest of the work. About $80 000 (http://www.sybaritic.co.za/store/product_info.php?cPath=74_224&products_id=13368 that’s the kind of graphics card you use)
Software: Now you have to buy windows for all those pc’s and the development tools you will need. http://store.autodesk.com/servlet/ControllerServlet?Action=DisplayHomePage&SiteID=adsk&Locale=en_US&Env=BASE So we need 10 licenses of 3d’s max. That’s $34 950. Vista x64 Ultimate x35 = $1 500. Also we have to office = $1000. That’s another we will be using the Unreal Engine for our game and need 10 copies so that’s another $6000 plus we are doing using C++ so that’s another $5000(http://www.unrealtechnology.com/development-kit.php?ref=order)

We have now reached month 10 and want to have our beta up and running. Now we have dedicated servers and our beta download is 5GB’s 1000 people download it and play on our servers for 5 months. That’s another $20 000 (give or take :p)

Finally the beta is done. Now we are going to release 500 000 copies of our game.
$500 000 for DVD’s. $2 000 000 for the case and booklet printing( we hired a company to do this and that’s their labour cost worked in). Let’s have a guess that shipping will be about $1 000 000 for everything.(I am not sure that the store or the publisher pays for shipping to the store, but it's going to add to your price somewhere along the line)

Now there hasn’t been any marketing done. And the game has just been released on the pc. If we wanted to release the game on the Xbox or PS3 we would have to buy those development tools and the consoles as well.

Just to release the game on pc we spent $9 272 450. To make our company break even on the game we will need to charge $18.54 per game. But we want a profit and we need to pay back that $10 000 000 loan we got 20 months ago so we need to get $12 000 000 just to break even. So with the loan taken into account it’s $24 to break even.But for our profit margin we sell the game at $35 and we do so worldwide.

Ster-Kinekor in South Africa buys the game as the sole distributer and adds a little bit of profit on that price. To $40. Now look and listen buys the game from Ster-Kinekor and adds its profit And the game sells for $45.

Understand now?

[Solitude]

Nicely done SpoOkie. It made for an interesting read.

[Warlynx]

Aye

A good deduction there! The latest price hikes has inspired me to do something about it.

You will be hearing from me soon, now ... I just need to get Tinman to agree to man plans ... mhwa...mwhahaha.... mwhahahahahahahah!

[Impi]

OK I havent read all the posts here, as im too busy.
But I will say this.
Gaming companies/Game developer companies make so much money off of us they could use the cash a TP.
Years of development go into making a kickass game.
All of these companies also pay magazines etc to hype up the game and make you want to but it.(example: Hellgate London looked orsm but in the end it sucked, not graphics wise but playability wise)
But they basically over charge you by about 200-300% of its actual worth.
They actually start making profit within less that 2 months of selling the product if more than X amount of people buy the game.
For example:OK I know UT3 is "old" now but when it came out you had to pay 400 bucks if not more, a few days back I saw it in a bargain bin for 100 bucks.
Am I wrong in my opinion?

[mcryan]

There is certainly a very large amount of money that goes into making a game. With our recent games, they're full on titles with studios for sound, visual effects, etc, etc, etc. Of course, these companies are making a huge profit from the games because there are many millions of us buying them.

So long as our games become more and more advanced and we keep buying them, the pricing will remain the same and slowly go up in price with the rest of everything else going up in price.

I also think that when times are tough like they are now, people will rather go and buy a game and sit and home playing than spending far more money taking weekends away and eating at fancy restaurants. So the recession might not even hurt them at all...

[bokka1]

I bought the first StarCraft second hand from Cash Converters for R120. Nowadays CD keys are associated with online profiles, linked to Steam accounts, and all kinds of other stuff that makes it almost impossible to resell.

F.E.A.R. 2 and DoW2 both use Steamworks as DRM meaning that the PC versions can't be traded or resold. I've associated my StarCraft and Diablo 2 CD keys with my Blizzard Account so if I were to sell those games then whichever sucker bought them from me won't be able to do the same.

Get an Xbox and you won't have those problems.(you won't be able to play those games either)

[Venomrush]

I haven't bought a single game since 2004...but that's not because I'm a pirate. It's because I'm a tauren druid :P

[The Joker]

Why You Pay $$$ for games.

I’ll approach this from an economics stand point. Most people don’t think about all the costs that go into making a game, and most of the times forget about a couple of stuff. I have never worked for a developer/publishing company so these are all estimates and my personal guesses as I have done no research to substantiate this. I shall also be looking at a company making its first game, let’s have 30 people working on this for arguments sake. If you however see where I am incorrect please correct me ;) So let’s begin.

Development cycle 20 months.
Rent: $1000 per month x20 + Water + Electricity = $200 per month x 20
Salaries: $8000 per month on average x20 x 35
Hardware: 15 High end Nvidia Quadro pc’s for coders and modellers + 20 other pc’s for the rest of the work. About $80 000 (http://www.sybaritic.co.za/store/product_info.php?cPath=74_224&products_id=13368 that’s the kind of graphics card you use)
Software: Now you have to buy windows for all those pc’s and the development tools you will need. http://store.autodesk.com/servlet/ControllerServlet?Action=DisplayHomePage&SiteID=adsk&Locale=en_US&Env=BASE So we need 10 licenses of 3d’s max. That’s $34 950. Vista x64 Ultimate x35 = $1 500. Also we have to office = $1000. That’s another we will be using the Unreal Engine for our game and need 10 copies so that’s another $6000 plus we are doing using C++ so that’s another $5000(http://www.unrealtechnology.com/development-kit.php?ref=order)

We have now reached month 10 and want to have our beta up and running. Now we have dedicated servers and our beta download is 5GB’s 1000 people download it and play on our servers for 5 months. That’s another $20 000 (give or take :p)

Finally the beta is done. Now we are going to release 500 000 copies of our game.
$500 000 for DVD’s. $2 000 000 for the case and booklet printing( we hired a company to do this and that’s their labour cost worked in). Let’s have a guess that shipping will be about $1 000 000 for everything.(I am not sure that the store or the publisher pays for shipping to the store, but it's going to add to your price somewhere along the line)

Now there hasn’t been any marketing done. And the game has just been released on the pc. If we wanted to release the game on the Xbox or PS3 we would have to buy those development tools and the consoles as well.

Just to release the game on pc we spent $9 272 450. To make our company break even on the game we will need to charge $18.54 per game. But we want a profit and we need to pay back that $10 000 000 loan we got 20 months ago so we need to get $12 000 000 just to break even. So with the loan taken into account it’s $24 to break even.But for our profit margin we sell the game at $35 and we do so worldwide.

Ster-Kinekor in South Africa buys the game as the sole distributer and adds a little bit of profit on that price. To $40. Now look and listen buys the game from Ster-Kinekor and adds its profit And the game sells for $45.

Understand now?

Thanx for the nice breakdown mate!!
Really appreciate it
I still don't give a crap though:D

There are ways and means to cut costs, its simple, if a business is busy failling you don't push up the prices and ask more for your products..You look at what you can do to keep your current clients happy, while gaining more business by pricing things so that everyone can purchase it!!

Its simpe to improve sales you drop prices while cutting costs, there are ways and means.:mad:

[phoenix]

Thank you, SpoOkie. This is just what I was looking for.

May I ask why the developers would need to have Vista Ultimate x64 and Microsoft Office?

Would the game suffer if the developers did not use a commercial version of C++?

[Jan]

Most people don’t think about all the costs that go into making a game, and most of the times forget about a couple of stuff. I have never worked for a developer/publishing company so these are all estimates and my personal guesses as I have done no research to substantiate this. I shall also be looking at a company making its first game, let’s have 30 people working on this for arguments sake. If you however see where I am incorrect please correct me ;) So let’s begin.

Hi SpoOkie, I think you did a good first-order analysis there but I am going to take you up on your offer to correct you where we think we see mistakes ;).


Now there hasn’t been any marketing done. And the game has just been released on the pc. If we wanted to release the game on the Xbox or PS3 we would have to buy those development tools and the consoles as well.

Just to release the game on pc we spent $9 272 450. To make our company break even on the game we will need to charge $18.54 per game. But we want a profit and we need to pay back that $10 000 000 loan we got 20 months ago so we need to get $12 000 000 just to break even. So with the loan taken into account it’s $24 to break even.But for our profit margin we sell the game at $35 and we do so worldwide.

At some stage I'd like to take a look at including marketing costs because they are important, but I don't want to make this a tldr post.

There are two things that bug me most: Firstly you're trying to recoup your costs and make a 46% profit by selling only 500k units. Secondly you're trying to make a 46% profit! Holy cow!

Considering that you've worked in the costs of new PCs and software licenses for every employee as well as the salaries of all the employees you really only need a 15-20% markup.

Then keep in mind that every sale after that initial run of 500k is basically clean profit. Instead of a 'Cost of Sales' of roughly $22 per unit (excluding shipping), the cost drops to roughly $5 per unit (excluding shipping) by your guesstimations. This of course doesn't take into account the effect higher or lower quantities might have on production costs (except for the shipping costs I've stripped out) but this is all just first-order, trying to compare apples with apples.

Anyway, all of a sudden every unit beyond the initial 500k that you sell at $26 ($22 with just less than 20% mark-up) is sold at an equivalent mark-up of roughly 80%. Or in USD you profit $21 per unit sold after the initial run of 500k instead of the mere $4 during the initial run.

Now considering that companies sell a million or more of copies of a good game I'd say that they could make a tidy pile of money off a game that falls within the parameters set here.

I hope what I've written is at least understandable to some :p.

[lilDeath]

Thanks SpoOkie for taking your time to post that.

However, that is a very basic lifecycle of what happens with any new product, especially the development cycle, the Operational costs (salaries, water, elec, etc) and then Capital expenditure (pc's, hardware, software, furniture, etc). It doesn't just apply to gaming.

Also, companies do not spend all this money on just one project / product. If they do, it is a very risky product from the very beginning. These initial monies are enough to last for several projects, which in the end reduces the initial outlay and total cost of ownership. This means if anything, the cost on the original and subsequent product release must actually be less.

Of course, this is dependent on the different products and their lifecycles, in addition to how often assets / software must be recycled. Especially if you must stay ahead of your competition and technology.
But lets not forget, all these businesses talk to other businesses and they come to an agreement about costs and sharing intellectual property.
An example of this is the way Crysis was developed. The developers worked very closely with MS on this (DX10) and I doubt they paid for this, or in the least they received a nice discount and in return MS was being mentioned and having their technology being punted in the process. It's a win-win for both companies. Such agreements are commonplace and good business practice.
Think about it - Why must you reinvent the wheel if someone else have already done it for you?

Is it a coincidence that the other car manufacturers are buying Totoyta's hybrid motor and using it in their own cars? Hell no! The same logic applies to gaming.
So many games are using the same game engines. Why? When compared to a tried-and-tested technology, it saves money in the long run (decreasing the dev cycle for instance, reducing total costs, etc) instead of having to design your own.

So, I am not saying SpoOkie is incorrect in his economics101 post, but it in no way does it explain why the game publishers are over charging for their games by such a huge margin.

I simply don't believe that. If the costs are indeed the reason for the high prices, then they had a terrible business plan from the beginning. Especially for games that are in development for 5 years and more (and there are a few of those we know of).

[SpoOkie]

Well to put it for you in perspective i did say it was just a way of looking at things.

EA pays their developers $10 000 a month. And on a single project they have 50 people working on it. I read an article earlier this month where they said they are making game studios more like movie studios and will contract out the developers. Which will reduce costs by a significant margin. BTW, GTA IV's development costs were over $100 million, which to me is absurd for a pc game.


One thing I do want to say is though that over the last 10 years of me buying a game. the price has increased R100 for pc games. That's not a lot compared to movie tickets :p But then again the games industry exploded :D

@Extremist, you forgot about TAX :p

The top 10 best selling games of 2008 sold more than a million copies. So 90% of the games never get there. Will give link later (local only now)

[Jan]

Also, companies do not spend all this money on just one project / product. If they do, it is a very risky product from the very beginning. These initial monies are enough to last for several projects, which in the end reduces the initial outlay and total cost of ownership. This means if anything, the cost on the original and subsequent product release must actually be less.

...

Of course, this is dependent on the different products and their lifecycles, in addition to how often assets / software must be recycled. Especially if you must stay ahead of your competition and technology.

Exactly. I gave it some thought while I was responding to Spookie's post and figured that Spookie's guesstimates of buying everyone a new PC at the start of every new game's development cycle is probably not that far off. You also typically have to buy new engine licenses for every new game.


Think about it - Why must you reinvent the wheel if someone else have already done it for you?

One word: Ownership. It's all about trade-offs in business. Do the (financial) benefits of development and ownership outweigh those of licensing/cross-licensing/nip-and-dip? For each project the answers are different.


If the costs are indeed the reason for the high prices, then they had a terrible business plan from the beginning. Especially for games that are in development for 5 years and more (and there are a few of those we know of).

If anything's come out of this it should be that the economics of game development is far from the simple.


One thing I do want to say is though that over the last 10 years of me buying a game. the price has increased R100 for pc games. That's not a lot compared to movie tickets :p But then again the games industry exploded :D

TBH I don't even know what movie tickets used to cost 10 years ago... R18? R20? I think 10 years ago you could get PC games for between R200 and R299, depending on the publisher and distributor. Now games cost anywhere between R315 (Pre-order price for Demigod) and R500 (F.E.A.R.2).

This isn't an entirely equal comparison but comparing lowest with lowest and highest with highest we're looking at a price increase of between 50% and 67%. Not as much as movies, no, but still quite high.


@Extremist, you forgot about TAX :p I can't tell if that's a sarcastic tongue smiley or not :S.


The top 10 best selling games of 2008 sold more than a million copies. So 90% of the games never get there. Will give link later (local only now)

Yeah I know, but games that sell less (I saw that the original Homeworld sold 500k copies in it's second year of release) need to be done on a smaller budget (*much* less staff, for instance).

[The Joker]

This is turning out to be an excellent thread.
Thanx for the great response guys!!
I think all the info we have gathered thus far has been excellent and very informative.
I'll stick to my opinion though, games are expenssive because gaming companies know we'll just keep coughing up the dough for their products!!
"The rich keep getting richer"

[lilDeath]

Exactly. I gave it some thought while I was responding to Spookie's post and figured that Spookie's guesstimates of buying everyone a new PC at the start of every new game's development cycle is probably not that far off. You also typically have to buy new engine licenses for every new game.

It won't be true for all of them. Like you said below, it will be different between projects. On the licensing aspect, there are ways around this as well, by making deals with the software vendor for instance, etc.


One word: Ownership. It's all about trade-offs in business. Do the (financial) benefits of development and ownership outweigh those of licensing/cross-licensing/nip-and-dip? For each project the answers are different.

Exactly. You have to do the calculations in business. Assumptions are the recipe for failure.


If anything's come out of this it should be that the economics of game development is far from the simple.

That I also find to be just wrong. It shouldn't be. The only reason I see it being that way is due to the industry making it so. The whole cycle is extremely convoluted and everyone wants their piece of the pie, which means it is us (the customer) that suffers.

Movies and games have gone up by a substantial amount over the last few years. There are definite comparisons to be made.

I agree with Joker too - The gaming companies know what they are doing and ripping the community a nice big one in the process. Everybody is doing it. Car prices, food prices, bread, milk, etc. Everyone is loading their prices, middle men are raking it in. The consumer is the one taking the biggest hits. Vaaking sad :(

[The Joker]

It won't be true for all of them. Like you said below, it will be different between projects. On the licensing aspect, there are ways around this as well, by making deals with the software vendor for instance, etc.



Exactly. You have to do the calculations in business. Assumptions are the recipe for failure.



That I also find to be just wrong. It shouldn't be. The only reason I see it being that way is due to the industry making it so. The whole cycle is extremely convoluted and everyone wants their piece of the pie, which means it is us (the customer) that suffers.

Movies and games have gone up by a substantial amount over the last few years. There are definite comparisons to be made.

I agree with Joker too - The gaming companies know what they are doing and ripping the community a nice big one in the process. Everybody is doing it. Car prices, food prices, bread, milk, etc. Everyone is loading their prices, middle men are raking it in. The consumer is the one taking the biggest hits. Vaaking sad :(

Exactly, there is no excuse for them charging us R1000 for a game!!
We support the gaming companies and this is how they thank us:confused:
Its pathetic!!:mad:

[nuyork]

I will never pay R700 for a game, nevermind R1000.

I usually try find a trade or find someone who is selling the game I want second hand.

If that doesn't work, I usually import my games at MUCH cheaper prices. Lots of people do it:-

http://www.xbox-360.co.za/forum/xbox-360-shopping-deals/47436-importers-anonymous-thread.html

People have imported brand new games at around R300. And I've ordered 5 XBox 360 games totaling R1000. Importing is the way to go...instead of being raped by the local market.

[shadowfox]

Here's a solution to driving the prices down :p Put the development houses in places like India and South Africa :D

Drives down production prices and we won't have to pay import duties (if in SA anyways). Win-win :D

[SpoOkie]

TBH I don't even know what movie tickets used to cost 10 years ago... R18? R20? I think 10 years ago you could get PC games for between R200 and R299, depending on the publisher and distributor. Now games cost anywhere between R315 (Pre-order price for Demigod) and R500 (F.E.A.R.2).

This isn't an entirely equal comparison but comparing lowest with lowest and highest with highest we're looking at a price increase of between 50% and 67%. Not as much as movies, no, but still quite high.

I can't tell if that's a sarcastic tongue smiley or not :S.

I went to the movies for R15 when I was in Gr.7 that's 8 years ago.

For Unreal Tournamet 2004 I paid R249. For Unreal Tournamet III I paid R349.

Fear 2 is the exception when it comes to price, and still it's a shit game. Most games these days are priced between R300-R400.

I was being sarcastic and serious. You have to factor in the 40%/35% tax that you will pay on your profit, and you didn't.

[SpoOkie]

People have imported brand new games at around R300. And I've ordered 5 XBox 360 games totaling R1000. Importing is the way to go...instead of being raped by the local market.

What local market? We don't have the number of people buying games or the number of distributors to get us low costs. It's just a fact of life.

[Jan]

I was being sarcastic and serious. You have to factor in the 40%/35% tax that you will pay on your profit, and you didn't.

Not that I'm an economist or anything, but you pay dividends on your before-tax net so that's what the shareholders want to see at between 12% and 16%. Then after the shareholders are paid (and all other expenses are taken into account) you pay tax.

[lilDeath]

What local market? We don't have the number of people buying games or the number of distributors to get us low costs. It's just a fact of life.
That is exactly why the local companies / distributors can ask what they want. THEY have the power and is dictating to the community, BECAUSE our local numbers are so low.
This will not change very easily, since there will always be desperados that are willing to pay the price for a game, no matter how much it costs.

These desperados make the companies / market inherently happy, since they think the games are good and fairly priced. NO pressure on them here to reduce prices, right?
While in the meantime - It works against the people trying to make a stand on high prices and not buying the games. Because of our the low penetration / SMALL / NO local market of the gaming community (when compared to INTERNATIONAL numbers) the percentages can easily misrepresent the real influence of high prices.

An example:
There are 10 gamers, 5 refuse to buy due to high prices, 5 buy because they don't care and / or mommy daddy buys it for them. This looks like 50% of the gaming community is happy and buying games. That's a relatively high percentage.
(just to make sure I am not being misunderstood with the example, I am illustrating how easy low numbers affect percentages and perceptions, i.e. in SA's case.)

^ I touched on this slightly in my 1st post in this thread. MS is not being pressured enough to sort XBox Live out due to SA being such a small market - read: fu

When SA get bigger, we will have more buying power.
However, sadly I do not think this will change anytime soon. Our Internet is simply not good enough and internet penetration is still very low - 80%+ of SA does not have the access or means to broadband or even knows what the Internet is. (Thanks Telskommel)
Sad but true. :(

A global effort is needed, so go... Facebook FTW! :)

[Isengard]

Here's a solution to driving the prices down :p Put the development houses in places like India and South Africa :D

Drives down production prices and we won't have to pay import duties (if in SA anyways). Win-win :D

Yes, what we need are game development sweatshops! Game making on the cheap!

This thread has become real informative btw, keep it up. :)

[The Joker]

Ok i did a couple of calculations now.

Grand theft auto 4 R700 X360
Gears of war2 R700 X360
Motorstorm pacific rift R900 Ps 3 (December)
FEAR 2 R485 PC
Dead space R600 X360

That's over 3 months, so if I had to carry on buying at this rate I would end up spending R1200 a month just on games..That's insane!!
I think its time to start curbing the gaming habit!!
Stuff them..they can milk someone else!!

[phoenix]

I don't think you should cut back on your Gaming Habit, Joker. Just shop around like I do, ;-)

[The Joker]

That is exactly why the local companies / distributors can ask what they want. THEY have the power and is dictating to the community,

I walked into 2 different shops at the same mall.
Gear of war 2 was priced R900 at the one and R700 at the other:confused:
So your absolutly correct lildeath. The mofo's charge what they want!!

How can these 2 shops that are practically next door to each other have a R200 price difference on 1 game:mad:
The thing that really got to me was that people were actually buying the more expenssive 1 :eek:

[SpoOkie]

http://www.take2.co.za/news.php?id=11853&type=2

http://www.take2.co.za/news.php?id=11852&type=2

That's why you have that. Took 3 business days and R365 later, I had soul caliber IV at my door.

[The Joker]

http://www.take2.co.za/news.php?id=11853&type=2

http://www.take2.co.za/news.php?id=11852&type=2

That's why you have that. Took 3 business days and R365 later, I had soul caliber IV at my door.

Yeah true but that's not the point im trying to make dude.

[The Joker]

HEY where are all the guys following this thread???
This debate isn't over yet!!

[sycogrim]

HEY where are all the guys following this thread???
This debate isn't over yet!!

I usually wait for a price to drop before i get something and usually Take 2 is the first to drop their pricing :D

[lilDeath]

Not much further to be said from my side.
If prices are too high, then don't buy and wait for prices to drop. Don't simply buy on impulse or 'you simply must have it'.

I still see people buying games and they admit it is too high and then the game isn't even worth it (see: FEAR2)
Obviously the price wasn't high ENOUGH if you went ahead and bought it anyway.

*shrug*

[Shamrock]

Biggest problem I have is that the problem is blamed on piracy. That's total crap. Game sales are going up, not down. Not to say I agree with pirated games, necessarily, but that's the wrong reason.

The real reason is no one wants to buy your terrible games for a terrible price. A brilliant, well priced game will sell loads.

[sycogrim]

Not much further to be said from my side.
If prices are too high, then don't buy and wait for prices to drop. Don't simply buy on impulse or 'you simply must have it'.

I still see people buying games and they admit it is too high and then the game isn't even worth it (see: FEAR2)
Obviously the price wasn't high ENOUGH if you went ahead and bought it anyway.

*shrug*

well the guy who wrote the review for FEAR2 is a mate of mine and he usually gets games a week before or that week it comes out and he tells me whether or not its worth the buy and then I get it when the price drops on Take2

[Keldarza]

Biggest problem I have is that the problem is blamed on piracy.

But perhaps the biggest concern over companies blaming piracy is that companies invest in anti-piracy tools. Lets face the facts, securom and safedisc and star force will have a "per dvd cost" and that adds up quickly. And they don't work, games are cracked within hours of being available [sometimes before it's available]. At R1 [for example] per DVD for protection, that means a game with 100 000 sold has lost out on R100 000... but I doubt that it's on sales figures and more than likely how many are produced. And I'd think that per DVD it's prob $1 for protection.

Over R1million for DVD protection that doesn't work?

[lilDeath]

well the guy who wrote the review for FEAR2 is a mate of mine and he usually gets games a week before or that week it comes out and he tells me whether or not its worth the buy and then I get it when the price drops on Take2
That is very sensible, basing your decisions on what your buddy decides is good or not.
Shame the pressure the poor guy must be under when reviewing a game, knowing that it impacts directly on you! :D

Plus, this is exactly why there are game reviewers. They give opinions on a game, but it is still the individual's choice to buy the game or not.
I bet there are guys that buy a game regardless of what a review said.

This is in addition to also deciding when to buy, i.e. buying at a premium price or simply waiting for the price to drop or not buy at all.

[Nictron]

I don't pirate period, I rather pay or keep my hands clean.

[The Joker]

I don't pirate period, I rather pay or keep my hands clean.

So you would rather pay R1000 for a game???

[Deceptor]

There is no way I will ever pay R1000 for any game. Just the thought of it makes me sick.

[Dan]

The only way pricing will drop for all platforms is if we, the gamers, the drones, stop feeding our gaming addiction
I disagree.

Current situation: people pirate games thus forcing game devs and publishers to drive up prices in order to compensate for losses. Also, lack of remuneration means less money is put into game development, resulting in sub-standard games.

Ideal situation: people stop stealing from the devs/publishers and actually pay money for their games. Said devs/publishers can now not only afford to sell games at lower prices, but to make the games far better with the increased funding.

It pisses me off when I see people jacking all the latest titles from their mates at LAN parties, especially when they bitch and moan that half of their haul is crap. I fork out for PS3 games and will continue to do so when the console inevitably gets chipped, because (IMHO) if everyone did the same we'd be playing far more "MGS4's" and far fewer "Lair's."

[The Joker]

Ok if you say so!!
Piracy is not to blame for the insane prices we pay for games.
Yes im against piracy but not everyone can afford to spend R1000 on a game!!
Gaming companies charge those insane prices cause they know we'll just keep buying.
There is no law telling them how much to charge for a title so they charge whatever they like!!

Its because of people like you and me and I dare say most of the proper gamers out there that game prices will keep clmbing because we'll keep buyng at the insane prices. Our morals get in the way of pure logic, so we spend R1000 on a game to make ourselves feel better.

"The rich keep getting richer"

[Dan]

Gaming companies charge those insane prices cause they know we'll just keep buying.

But what happens when people decide to pirate instead of pay those insane prices? Gaming companies lose money and drive up prices even more, and thus the vicious circle is perpetuated.

If there was no option to pirate, then I would agree with your argument: gamers would have no choice but to pay whatever the developers charge. However, the cheapskates among us are forcing the hand of gaming companies and making things worse for everyone else.

My hope is that the increasing console sales will slowly kill off the PC gaming platform and bring about some law and order to the piracy world. When developers then no longer HAVE to charge high prices for games, they'll have no justification in doing so, and thus prices should come down.

At the moment it's really just a case of a few ruining it for the many: most people can't see beyond their own gain and enjoyment and are just ruining the gaming industry for the rest of us.

[Stefan9]

But what happens when people decide to pirate instead of pay those insane prices? Gaming companies lose money and drive up prices even more, and thus the vicious circle is perpetuated.

If there was no option to pirate, then I would agree with your argument: gamers would have no choice but to pay whatever the developers charge. However, the cheapskates among us are forcing the hand of gaming companies and making things worse for everyone else.

My hope is that the increasing console sales will slowly kill off the PC gaming platform and bring about some law and order to the piracy world. When developers then no longer HAVE to charge high prices for games, they'll have no justification in doing so, and thus prices should come down.

At the moment it's really just a case of a few ruining it for the many: most people can't see beyond their own gain and enjoyment and are just ruining the gaming industry for the rest of us.

You really think if PC gaming disappears piracy will disappear? You are greatly mistaken. PS 2 games are pirated as much as pc games, there are already method to pirate xbox 360 games you just need to know where to look and how to do it properly. The only system safe so far is ps3. If pc gaming disappear the pirates will just concentrate on consoles.

[Dan]

Whoa, I'm not placing all the blame on PC users dude. My point is that the vast majority of piracy happens on the PC platform whereas the console side is easier to control.

Killing off PC gaming won't solve the problem but unfortunately it might end up helping the situation.

Read this:


PC piracy is a "huge concern", Command & Conquer: Red Alert 3 producer David Silverman has warned.

Speaking to VideoGamer.com in an interview to be published later this week, Silverman, who also works as a presenter for C&C TV, said that a "different approach" that includes digital distribution and micro-transactions will help tackle piracy on the PC in the future.

He said: "In all honesty piracy is a huge concern. Luckily people haven't figured out an easy way to pirate on consoles, otherwise you'd be telling me, 'oh, the console market's dying!'. It's a big problem and it's hard because you've got people like Greg (Black, lead balance designer) and a lot of guys on the development team who have been spending countless hours and someone just goes to download on a torrent site and they get the game. It's an unfortunate likelihood and it's one of the penalties that broadband came out. But unlike the music industry which went about it in an interesting way, we're trying some new things and I think we'll be productive in the years to come."

PC piracy is one of the industry's current hot topics. Recently Lionhead boss told VideoGamer.com that the PC gamer market was in "tatters". LucasArts explained to us in an interview from earlier in the year that it wasn't doing a PC version of Star Wars: The Force Unleashed because of the vast differences in power of PCs in people's homes and the lack of scalability of the game.

And Ubisoft Shanghai creative director Michael de Plater has told VG247 that a PC version of EndWar would most likely be shipping alongside the console SKUs if it wasn't for rampant PC piracy, and that copyright theft is essentially destroying the PC games market.sauce (http://www.videogamer.com/news/pc_piracy_is_a_huge_concern_warns_red_alert_3_dev. html?)

Also:


Infinity Ward's community manager muses, "they wonder why people don't make PC games any more."

"We pulled some disturbing numbers this past week about the amount of PC players currently playing [Call of Duty 4] Multiplayer (which was fantastic)," writes Robert Bowling, on the game's community blog. "What wasn't fantastic was the percentage of those numbers who were playing on stolen copies of the game."

"The amount of people who pirate PC games is astounding," he added. "It blows me away that people are willing to steal games (or anything) simply because it's not physical or it's on the safety of the internet to do."

PC games sales have decreased in recent years due to rampant piracy of software and other digital goods over internet sharing sites.more sauce (http://www.gamepro.com/article/news/156948/pc-piracy-levels-are-astounding-says-cod4-dev/)

Sad, but true :(

[HANDsolo]

I would think piracy keeps prices lower. Piracy is like a competitor, albeit an illegal one, and competition means lower prices. If there was absolutely no piracy, the companies would be able to charge a price that is a balance between maximising units sold and maximising profits, which will more likely mean higher prices than we are seeing now. This is how the executives would see things, but personally, I believe most pirates were never going to be customers in the first place.

[Stefan9]

I see you only qoute western developers there. Here's the opinion of cd projeck and stardock. Piracy is an issue but its often used as a scapegoat for developers/publishers who produce poor games who wouldn't sell as much as they wanted to even if there wasn't piracy.


Developer Stardock Says Piracy Isn't Killing PC Gaming
Sins of a Solar Empire sells 200,000 copies.
by Jimmy Thang
March 11, 2008 - There have been a lot of recent talks about the decline of PC gaming. Development studios are closing down, and companies are analysing the woes of the industry. One publisher, however, thinks it na?ve to blame piracy for the decline of PC gaming sales. Stardock's latest, a space-based real-time strategy game called Sins of a Solar Empire, has sold roughly 200,000 copies since its release last month. So how has Stardock achieved success?

According to Brad Wardell, president and CEO of Stardock, (via the Sins of a Solar Empire forum) piracy is an issue, but he doesn't think it should be used as a scapegoat when a game doesn't sell. Wardwell states that there is a problem with the way that game developers currently look at the PC install base. "When you develop for a market, you don't go by the user base. You go by the potential customer base. That's what most software companies do. They base what they want to create on the size of the market they're developing for. But not PC game developers. PC game developers seem to focus more on the 'cool' factor. What game can they make that will get them glory with the game magazines and gaming websites and hard core gamers? These days, it seems like game developers want to be like rock stars more than businessmen," Wardell wrote.

Rather than trying to craft a game to get the most media coverage, Wardell approaches the situation from a financial point of view. "When I make a game, I focus on making games that I think will be the most profitable… when it comes time to make a game, I don't have a hard time thinking of a game I'd like to play. The hard part is coming up with a game that we can actually make that will be profitable. And that means looking at the market as a business not about trying to be 'cool'."

Following this approach, Wardell cites Sins of a Solar Empire's success. The game has received great critical praise, in addition to having sold nearly 200,000 copies in its first month; an amazing feat for a comparatively small budgeted title. Wardell cites the lack of copy protection on Sins of a Solar Empire as one of the myth busters to piracy killing PC gaming.

Wardell then points out the fact that not catering to the media has potentially taken away precious front page coverage from his game, but at the end of the day it's mostly trivial. "We still don't get the editorial buzz that some of the big name titles do because our genre isn't considered as 'cool' as other genres. Imagine what our sales would be if our games had gotten game magazine covers and just massive editorial coverage like some of the big name games get. I don't want to suggest we get treated poorly by game magazine and web sites, not just because I fear them, which I do; we got good preview coverage on Sins, just not the same level as one of the 'mega' titles would get. Hard-core gamers have different tastes in games than the mainstream PC gaming market of game buyers. Remember Rollercoaster Tycoon? Heck, how much buzz does The Sims get in terms of editorial when compared to its popularity. Those things just aren't that cool to the hard core gaming crowd that everything seems geared toward despite the fact that they're not the ones buying most of the games."

Developer Stardock Says Piracy Isn't Killing PC Gaming
by Jimmy Thang
◄ Previous 1 2


He attributes his games' success to three reasons. The first and central reason is to make a good game. However he does point out the fact that not all good games sell. Secondly, he cites the importance of making your game work on a wide range of PCs. Thirdly, Stardock targets the most cost effective genres with the largest customer base. Wardell also says his company doesn't cater towards the Chinese market, which is mostly dominated by software pirates.

Going back to the scalability of the game, Wardell asserts that users with high-end gaming rigs are few and far between, and it would be dangerous to focus so narrowly on that market. "I think people would be shocked to find out how few hard core gamers there really are out there… In other software markets, getting 1% of the target market is considered good. If you need to sell 500,000 of your game to break even and your game requires Pixel Shader 3 to not look like crap or play like crap, do you really think that there are 50 MILLION PC users with Pixel Shader 3 capable machines who a) play games and b) will actually buy your game if a pirated version is available?"

The appeal of Sins of a Solar Empire is that works on a wide range of computers, while maintaining more than suitable graphics. "Anyone who's looked at the graphics in Sins of a Solar Empire would, I think, agree that the graphics are pretty phenomenal (particularly space battles). But could they be even fancier? Sure. But only if we degraded the gaming experience for the largest chunk of people who buy games.

In closing, Wardell makes it known that he doesn't trivialize piracy, because he thinks it is a problem within the industry. To live with that fact, he just ignores the pirates and caters his games to paying customers. "The reason why we don't put copy protection on our games isn't because we're nice guys. We do it because the people who actually buy games don't like to mess with it. Our customers make the rules, not the pirates."

He went on to note, "In the end, the pirates hurt themselves. PC game developers will either slowly migrate to making games that cater to the people who buy PC games or they'll move to platforms where people are more inclined to buy games. In the meantime, if you want to make profitable PC games, I'd recommend focusing more effort on satisfying the people willing to spend money on your product and less effort on making what others perceive as hot. But then again, I don't romanticize PC game development. I just want to play cool games and make a profit on games that I work on."

[Stefan9]

The CD Projekt interview



Progressive About Piracy


By Kris Graft
February 10, 2009
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See also:
CD Projekt
DRM
Piracy
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"Of course we can’t totally forget that piracy exists. But, well, it already does, so why not be progressive in the way you try to actually encourage sales of legal games?"


Last year, CD Projekt, the same company behind the PC role-playing game The Witcher, announced a unique initiative that seemed as much a PC fan's pet project as a legitimate business venture: Good Old Games.

Good Old Games, or "GOG," which is currently in beta, is a digital distribution and community site that offers classic PC games (Fallout, Painkiller, Messiah, et al) that are compatible with Windows Vista and XP, under $10 and, perhaps most notably, DRM-free. Since GOG's July 2008 announcement, CD Projekt has been working to sign more deals with publishers, but there has been some resistance from companies wary of GOG's staunch "no-DRM" stance.

This week, Edge spoke with CD Projekt's PR and marketing VP Tom Ohle to catch up on the latest developments at GOG, as the community and digital distribution site continues its beta phase.

Why aren't you worried that people will just pirate these no-DRM games? Or are you worried?

Of course we can’t totally forget that piracy exists. But, well, it already does, so why not be progressive in the way you try to actually encourage sales of legal games? I can go on a wide variety of sites and search for a classic game that I want, and I can find it--with the CD check removed or a crack that circumvents copy protection. So these games are practically DRM-free anyway. Now if you’re a gamer and want to play one of these games, but can’t find it in stores or don’t want to pay crazy prices on eBay, your only option is to get an illegal copy. Gamers (most of them) don’t want to do that and feel a bit guilty about it, publishers don’t make any money, and the piracy issue becomes more prevalent. We just want to give people legitimate copies of these classic games without putting any hurdles in their way.

That being said, the lack of DRM is still our biggest hurdle to getting publishers to sign on [for GOG]. We’re having fewer issues with getting companies on board now that the site has shown some sustained success, but we really want to get every possible game up at GOG.com; that means that we still need major publishers to sign on. It’s a great deal for them, as they can start making good money from their out-of-print games, and it’s great for gamers who can find working copies of old games they love without having to lower themselves to piracy.

How is developer and publisher interest in GOG? Has it grown much since launch; is it meeting, maybe surpassing expectations?

We’re really happy with the fact that we’ve been able to maintain a really solid release schedule since going into beta, adding two or three games each week. Those games have come from a steady flow of new publishers and developers that want to bring their games to the site, and I think we’re starting to build some momentum on that front. Originally we had to do a lot of the legwork ourselves to get new deals, but it’s started to snowball a bit and now we have a lot of companies coming directly to us. Some of the deals we’re working on right now – which should close in the next few weeks or months – should help to further increase our credibility, and will hopefully encourage some more major publishers to monetize their back catalogs at GOG.com.

What's next for GOG besides expanding the library?

Expanding the library. Oh. You already said that. We’re doing a lot of work behind the scenes to extend the site’s functionality and features, like more robust user profiles, better integration with things like our Twitter feed and YouTube channel, and some more GOG-generated content like our editorials. We want to make the site even more appealing for people who are just looking for a great community of people interested in classic games. One of our highest priorities is trying to expand the audience – encouraging people to tell their friends about the site. If you’ve got any ideas on that, I’d love to hear them. [Laughs] Just kidding… sort of. We have a lot of ideas, but since we’re relying heavily on word of mouth, we want to give fans a reason to spread the word.

What happens if places like Steam start selling more old cheap games, encroaching on GOG's territory? Is that a concern?

They’ve already started doing that--these Steam weekend deals are pretty good, you know. ... We’re still really confident in our business model and the unique value we offer, so we’re not too concerned about others making moves into classic games. Gamers want a hassle-free experience and great value–we’ll always be pushing DRM-free games that work on modern operating systems, are cheap and packed with bonus materials. It’s a hard deal to beat.

[Nictron]

So you would rather pay R1000 for a game???

I would not pay R1000, I just won't pirate either.

[The Joker]

I see you only qoute western developers there. Here's the opinion of cd projeck and stardock. Piracy is an issue but its often used as a scapegoat for developers/publishers who produce poor games who wouldn't sell as much as they wanted to even if there wasn't piracy.

I agree.
They use it as a scapegoat!!
Well said Stefan9

[Dan]

Um, that's a separate argument Stefan9: how does blaming poor sales on piracy relate to piracy driving game prices up?

I wouldn't mind seeing this put up as a poll: how many people here actually pay for their games, and on which platform?

[Stefan9]

Um, that's a separate argument Stefan9: how does blaming poor sales on piracy relate to piracy driving game prices up?

I wouldn't mind seeing this put up as a poll: how many people here actually pay for their games, and on which platform?

Because since the previous game sold badly and its blamed on piracy they try and recoup those perceived lost sales with their new project by driving up prices of the new project.

[Nictron]

Steam actually highlighted recently that game prices need to come down, because every time they lower a price or have a special sales just sky rocket upwards!

I would say below R200 for a game will be reasonable, that will widen the market to more people and increase sales.

[Deceptor]

R200 for a game if only.

[Stefan9]

Steam actually highlighted recently that game prices need to come down, because every time they lower a price or have a special sales just sky rocket upwards!

I would say below R200 for a game will be reasonable, that will widen the market to more people and increase sales.

Steam is hardly innocent in this whole price war. There US prices are good but the prices they charge the european consumers are pathetic. They have a policy of $1=1 euro which is totally illogical since the euro is stronger than the dollar. Hence many europeans do not use them because they local european direct download services are cheaper.

[The Joker]

WOW Someone that's on the gamers side!!
Thanx Stefan9!!
As for people to come..Please read below!!
Please don't assume the role of the game companies defender!!

[Isengard]

EA has every right to charge what they want for there intellectual property. Stop complaining and pay the R800 for Mirrors Edge. It may only be 5 hours long, but that's 5 hours of EA's blood sweat and tears. Go buy EA games, and be sure to add in a R100 tip for a job well done.

/sarcasm off

[The Joker]

LMFAO!!
Very good mate!!

[lilDeath]

Ok if you say so!!
Piracy is not to blame for the insane prices we pay for games.
Yes im against piracy but not everyone can afford to spend R1000 on a game!!
Gaming companies charge those insane prices cause they know we'll just keep buying.
There is no law telling them how much to charge for a title so they charge whatever they like!!

Its because of people like you and me and I dare say most of the proper gamers out there that game prices will keep clmbing because we'll keep buyng at the insane prices. Our morals get in the way of pure logic, so we spend R1000 on a game to make ourselves feel better.

"The rich keep getting richer"
I'm sorry, but that's not me. I don't pay insane prices for games. I wait for the prices to drop.
I don't need to buy a game straight on release and pay insane prices for it. It's not going to increase my quality of life or make me 'feel better' by doing so, or affect me in any way at all, so why should I.
If people are indeed doing what you say, then that would be a bit sad and in all honesty, dumb, to do that.

The game companies will never learn their lesson with such a mentality.

[BornWinner]

I don't mind paying the full price, whatever it may be (up to a limit!).
Software developers and programmers still need to put beans in their family's mouth every night.

The price of PS3 games generally offset the investment in PC hardware upgrades.

[sycogrim]

What I really enjoy about PS3 sports games is ur not paying top $ for them compared to games with story lines and I only payed R320 for GT5 and like R300 for Tony hawks now thats how much games should cost and not such outrageous prices....

[Dan]

Its because of people like you and me and I dare say most of the proper gamers out there that game prices will keep clmbing because we'll keep buyng at the insane prices. Our morals get in the way of pure logic, so we spend R1000 on a game to make ourselves feel better.


I'm sorry, but that's not me. I don't pay insane prices for games. I wait for the prices to drop.
I don't need to buy a game straight on release and pay insane prices for it. It's not going to increase my quality of life or make me 'feel better' by doing so, or affect me in any way at all, so why should I.
If people are indeed doing what you say, then that would be a bit sad and in all honesty, dumb, to do that.

Agreed lilDeath. No one is forcing people to fork out these 'insane prices.' Game companies capiltalize on overhyped marketing and fanboy greed and rake in a fortune from inflated launch pricetags.

Joker: how is buying a game (as opposed to pirating it) on launch date any more morally right than buying it a month or two later?

I really don't see the point about crying over these 'R1 000' games when a couple of months of patience will score you the game for far less. Take MGS4 as a good example: I saw it going for R900 during its first week after release yet you can pick it up now for less than half that.

[lilDeath]

Spot on, RustPuppet.
If you feel unhappy about the price of a game, then do something about it - you have a choice - buy it at the high price, or don't.

BUT - It starts with you! You do have the power!

/end motivational speech

[Stefan9]

Just bypass the local suppliers and you won't ever need to pay those R900 prices. You may have the odd battle with customs like the last week but you will pay 50% less even with delivery costs included. If I was a ps3 or console gamer I would certainly not support the local retailers/distributors. Also if you wait a few weeks/months you will save even more by importing,the overseas retailers drop prices much faster then the greedy ones over here.

[Eniigma]

I think there are two, possibly 3 aspects to it here.

1. Games generally want instant gratification... that means they'll pay the premium price to get the game as soon as it's launched and also that they are willing to get it locally rather then wait for it to take a few days extra from oversees. I've done this myself, where I get so amped for a game that I've been willing to pay R100 extra for it from CNA instead of getting it from Take2 and having to wait 2 days.

2.) The local market is relatively small. Lets for example say that there are 200 xbox owners in Durban, and about 30 stores competing for sales to those 200 people. Its better for the stores to make R400 profit off each tile rather then R50 or R100. They know that games will pay this for the reason above and most of the stores seem to be in collusion when it comes to pricing so they know that the guy next door is not going to under cut them.

3.) Possibly high import duties and taxes, I don't know how much these impact the prices though, I doubt it is really enough to justify the high cost of games.

[Stefan9]

I think there are two, possibly 3 aspects to it here.

1. Games generally want instant gratification... that means they'll pay the premium price to get the game as soon as it's launched and also that they are willing to get it locally rather then wait for it to take a few days extra from oversees. I've done this myself, where I get so amped for a game that I've been willing to pay R100 extra for it from CNA instead of getting it from Take2 and having to wait 2 days.

2.) The local market is relatively small. Lets for example say that there are 200 xbox owners in Durban, and about 30 stores competing for sales to those 200 people. Its better for the stores to make R400 profit off each tile rather then R50 or R100. They know that games will pay this for the reason above and most of the stores seem to be in collusion when it comes to pricing so they know that the guy next door is not going to under cut them.

3.) Possibly high import duties and taxes, I don't know how much these impact the prices though, I doubt it is really enough to justify the high cost of games.

3 is wrong. You can import ps3 and some xbox 360 games personally and pay 50% less than the local price. Bare in mind here you are importing using retail prices and not shipping in bulk. The distributor and retailers can import at cost price and ship in bulk. Secondly there are no duties on pc hardware and software, at most you will pay vat and custom tax. In most cases you are unlikely to even get charged this and if you do it will still work out much cheaper than local price.

[lilDeath]

Just bypass the local suppliers and you won't ever need to pay those R900 prices. You may have the odd battle with customs like the last week but you will pay 50% less even with delivery costs included. If I was a ps3 or console gamer I would certainly not support the local retailers/distributors. Also if you wait a few weeks/months you will save even more by importing,the overseas retailers drop prices much faster then the greedy ones over here.
Agreed. This hooks on nicely to what I have been advocating in this thread - shop with your head (in the end meaning making a vote with your wallet), but don't shop with your heart or on impulse / emotion. This is bad in the long run. Shop around for specials, and in this case, even overseas, or simply wait, but be patient.

I think there are two, possibly 3 aspects to it here.

1. Games generally want instant gratification... that means they'll pay the premium price to get the game as soon as it's launched and also that they are willing to get it locally rather then wait for it to take a few days extra from oversees. I've done this myself, where I get so amped for a game that I've been willing to pay R100 extra for it from CNA instead of getting it from Take2 and having to wait 2 days.

2.) The local market is relatively small. Lets for example say that there are 200 xbox owners in Durban, and about 30 stores competing for sales to those 200 people. Its better for the stores to make R400 profit off each tile rather then R50 or R100. They know that games will pay this for the reason above and most of the stores seem to be in collusion when it comes to pricing so they know that the guy next door is not going to under cut them.

3.) Possibly high import duties and taxes, I don't know how much these impact the prices though, I doubt it is really enough to justify the high cost of games.
#3 I believe Stefan9 covered well enough in his post.

#2 is up for debate, but I argued the same thing (just from the other point of view) on the numbers and how easy it is to skew %s when small numbers are involved, in the case of SA especially.
For example - we have 10 000 gamers in SA, all of them love F.E.A.R 1. F.E.A.R 2 is released and results / reviews are bad = don't play / buy it (price too high).
However - 4000/5000 gamers go out and buy it never-mind what it costs while the rest isn't because 1/ the game is bad, but most importantly because the price is too high.
Now, to the developer / designer / distributor it looks like the game is cooking. I mean 40% sales! Who wouldn't love that sales figures!
While back at the ranch, the people that bought the game (at the high price) and played it, are now disappointed (and feel robbed!) due to #1+2 above. Too late now though....

With even smaller figures, the percentages are skewed even more easily, but you get the idea. The devs / designers / distributors will never listen in this instance. Why would they?

#1 I blame today's culture and society for this. Everybody is so used to immediate results and everything being readily available. What is wrong with waiting a few days? I will tell you... NOTHING! The generation of today (the younger generation especially) is spoilt imo, in more ways than one.
Check this thread of a YouTube link I posted, it covers what I am talking about - http://mygaming.co.za/forum/showthread.php?t=665

[Eniigma]

Agreed. This hooks on nicely to what I have been advocating in this thread - shop with your head (in the end meaning making a vote with your wallet), but don't shop with your heart or on impulse / emotion. This is bad in the long run. Shop around for specials, and in this case, even overseas, or simply wait, but be patient.

#3 I believe Stefan9 covered well enough in his post.

#2 is up for debate, but I argued the same thing (just from the other point of view) on the numbers and how easy it is to skew %s when small numbers are involved, in the case of SA especially.
For example - we have 10 000 gamers in SA, all of them love F.E.A.R 1. F.E.A.R 2 is released and results / reviews are bad = don't play / buy it (price too high).
However - 4000/5000 gamers go out and buy it never-mind what it costs while the rest isn't because 1/ the game is bad, but most importantly because the price is too high.
Now, to the developer / designer / distributor it looks like the game is cooking. I mean 40% sales! Who wouldn't love that sales figures!
While back at the ranch, the people that bought the game (at the high price) and played it, are now disappointed (and feel robbed!) due to #1+2 above. Too late now though....

With even smaller figures, the percentages are skewed even more easily, but you get the idea. The devs / designers / distributors will never listen in this instance. Why would they?

#1 I blame today's culture and society for this. Everybody is so used to immediate results and everything being readily available. What is wrong with waiting a few days? I will tell you... NOTHING! The generation of today (the younger generation especially) is spoilt imo, in more ways than one.
Check this thread of a YouTube link I posted, it covers what I am talking about - http://mygaming.co.za/forum/showthread.php?t=665

I think we are both saying petty much the same thing, just using slightly different words.

I think we both agree that the biggest cause was reason one... simply put we pay these prices because people are willing to pay them to get something now. If no one was willing to pay R900 for a game in it's first month of release and everyone waited till they dropped to R500 or less, then the retailers would be forced to drop their prices and even the developers/publishers would be forced to as well.

Instead we live in a generation where everyone wants everything right now and is not prepared to wait for it.

[The Joker]

I think we are both saying petty much the same thing, just using slightly different words.

I think we both agree that the biggest cause was reason one... simply put we pay these prices because people are willing to pay them to get something now. If no one was willing to pay R900 for a game in it's first month of release and everyone waited till they dropped to R500 or less, then the retailers would be forced to drop their prices and even the developers/publishers would be forced to as well.

Instead we live in a generation where everyone wants everything right now and is not prepared to wait for it.

Yip...Ive said that from the start!!
Its because of people like you and me, we are willing to pay the insane prices!! Untill that chaanges, prices will stay high and piracy will grow even more!!

[Strife]

Just a question on importing, I have bought a game from shopto.net and its taking awhile to receive the game, the tracking number on the Royal mail just says "handed over to South African postal service." Does anyone know what happens fro there, is the game deliveryed directly to your door step or do you have to fetch it from the post office or what?

[Dan]

Yip...Ive said that from the start!!
Its because of people like you and me, we are willing to pay the insane prices!! Untill that chaanges, prices will stay high and piracy will grow even more!!

I may be stating the obvious here, but if you want things to change, why not just stop paying release-day prices?

Also, no one's putting a gun to your head. And we are talking about video games here, not crack.

[The Joker]

I may be stating the obvious here, but if you want things to change, why not just stop paying release-day prices?

Also, no one's putting a gun to your head. And we are talking about video games here, not crack.

Dude..Have you ever met serious gamers???
Games are their drugs:D

[Stefan9]

Just a question on importing, I have bought a game from shopto.net and its taking awhile to receive the game, the tracking number on the Royal mail just says "handed over to South African postal service." Does anyone know what happens fro there, is the game deliveryed directly to your door step or do you have to fetch it from the post office or what?

Do you have a tracking number?? Try and see if you can track it on this site:http://www.parceltrack.co.za/new/

This may help you. Its from prophecy forum


You can track the package until it leaves the UK using the Royal Mail tracking number provided by ShopTo via the Royal Mail website. Once it arrives in SA you can call the SAPO (0860111502) and get a local tracking number by telling them your international one. You can then track it locally via the SAPO website.

[Dan]

Dude..Have you ever met serious gamers???

Mate, I was rocking games on my Atari and C64 (on cassettes to boot) when most kids were still playing in the sandbox, so yeah, I think I know serious gamers :p

Seriously though, if we simply stopped forking out release-day prices there's not much gaming companies could do other than drop them quicker.

[AcidRaZor]

Mate, I was rocking games on my Atari and C64 (on cassettes to boot) when most kids were still playing in the sandbox, so yeah, I think I know serious gamers :p

Seriously though, if we simply stopped forking out release-day prices there's not much gaming companies could do other than drop them quicker.

Sorry but that argument is the same one IQ-challenged people use to bring down the petrol price. "If everyone just don't buy petrol for 1 day they'll have to bring down the price"

[Dan]

Not true. The petrol price happens on a far greater scale and reaches a far greater market, plus there are a lot of people that rely on petrol to maintain business operations (and the oil companies know it). The major petroleum companies also make far too much profit to be hurt by one measly day of no sales. Also, there are no independent retailers of petrol whereas a lot of game retailers set their own prices.

So, if BT Games decides to charge R800 for Killzone 2 on release day and no one buys a copy for two weeks, I guarantee you that it won't stay at R800 for long.

[The Joker]

Mate, I was rocking games on my Atari and C64 (on cassettes to boot) when most kids were still playing in the sandbox, so yeah, I think I know serious gamers :p

Seriously though, if we simply stopped forking out release-day prices there's not much gaming companies could do other than drop them quicker.

Yeah, but that's what ive been saying mate.
Gaming companies would have no choice but to drop the prices if we as consumers stop buying the games at these mad prices.

[lilDeath]

Sorry but that argument is the same one IQ-challenged people use to bring down the petrol price. "If everyone just don't buy petrol for 1 day they'll have to bring down the price"
Comparison failure.