DenSweeP
New member
I'll bring the beer.
Are games art? Do you care?
- Thread starter Tinman
- Start date
I'll bring the beer.
jasong
New member
Well, as I understand it she's saying that since there isn't a universal consensus on what exactly constitutes real art, we should leave the matter aside and simply discuss games-qua-games because whether they are or aren't art is only a matter of subjective interpretation. Which A) is a total cop-out - we can't avoid difficult questions because there is room for subjectivism; and B) denies the possibility of any significant critical discourse - games become a dangling, aborted, awkward non-entity.
And I think she's also saying that we shouldn't need or seek validation from some kind of self-appointed coterie of quote unquote 'real art' critics, who have traditionally shunned videogaming. Which is fine, but still avoids the question itself.
The thing is in any art form there is plenty of room for personal interpretation - literary criticism is full of disagreements. That doesn't mean that there isn't such a thing as art within literature - disagreement is the heart of discourse, and drives progress.
And I think she's also saying that we shouldn't need or seek validation from some kind of self-appointed coterie of quote unquote 'real art' critics, who have traditionally shunned videogaming. Which is fine, but still avoids the question itself.
The thing is in any art form there is plenty of room for personal interpretation - literary criticism is full of disagreements. That doesn't mean that there isn't such a thing as art within literature - disagreement is the heart of discourse, and drives progress.
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tpex
New member
art critics are like game critics, alot of the time it all comes down to to personal preference, thats why why I only read reviews on respected sites such as gamespot and IGN, at least they have a bit experience to put their preference (can't think of a better word) behind them and review the game fully - which generally seems to reflect what the general gamer thinks about the game
Azimuth
New member
Or that squabbling over the nature of art, and whether or not games qualify, denies the possibly of any significant critical discourse about the fucking games? I've explained, at exasperating length, that there's no issue of "difficult questions" here, only irrelevant questions. You're obviously completely hung up on that fallacious assumption that, ROBBED AND DENIED OF ANY REAL AND ENDURING CONSEQUENCE BY BEING ZOMG ART, that any game is apparently "a dangling, aborted, awkward non-entity". What a load of rot.
No. Have you even been reading my posts?
I have a degree in English and Latin literature. Not once during my entire undergrad was I ever expected to waste time debating whether or not some subscribed work was art.
Tinman
MyGaming Silverback
Nice straw man.
I'm not sure why we can't discuss the various merits of games without necessarily calling them art? We can discuss them as emotionally engaging experiences that teach, entertain and inspire without needing to know whether they are art.
Getting caught up in this question is time wasted that we could be discussing more specific and finite characteristics of games, such as whether a game can be as emotionally engaging as a film or novel. If not, why not etc.
And what's wrong with avoiding a question if you think its pointless and time consuming?
Tinman
MyGaming Silverback
I would love to say that. I was a philosophy major, and my girl friend an art history major. Needless to say, we have had many heated debates over whether or not there is really such a thing as "art". In my view, people make stuff, that's it. I must admit, I have had trouble defending that position ;P
DenSweeP
New member
Agreed and as I've asked earlier, which games has anyone found to be emotionally affective? I said Heavy Rain and the original Deus Ex.
Mappie, ek is n soutie en van hierdie hooge ingelse woorde is ver bo my vuurmaak plek. Moes selfs vir sommiges vir Oom Google vra wat beteken dit! Dalk moes ek meer aandag gegee het in klas baie jare terug en dan ek ook dalk Latyns verstaan!
Tinman
MyGaming Silverback
Oh, so many. Recently, Heavy Rain was an obvious contender, although, I found the controls a bit awkward which spoiled the immersion factor for me a bit. Bioshock really got me with the characters and the world it created, and the end of Bioshock 2 I found to be very emotional. I recall fighting a tear back, just because the story of the the Big Daddy was so tragic, and I really felt a connection there. Hmm, will try think of more and get back to you.
DenSweeP
New member
Hahaha.
You know, at the end of the day, if it's important to you(this being anybody who feels this way), say your say and fight your fight, but why can we not accept that everyone has their own opinion and is entitled to it? Instead we try to force someone else over to our beliefs or insight or whatever.
Azimuth and Tinman believe there is no such thing as art, jasong is convinced everything is art, Maplassie just farted and I just like to prod & poke a little to see who says what.
jasong
New member
Yea but see - I actually couldn't care less whether games are accepted as art. I don't give a toss about some nebulous recognition; it should be axiomatic. What concerns me is why so few games have attained to any degree of mature expression, or if they have, how we should approach their analysis. You seem to think I'm hung up on the games-as-art debate - I actually consider it rather juvenile and academic. I would rather leave that aside and investigate how games exist as an art form - which is entirely apropos.
Is it not worthwhile to debate the modes in which games convey narrative, for instance, or their limitations or strengths in allowing player freedom as a means of absorption? Don't you feel those are fruitful areas of exploration?
I thought I had.
Bully for you - but no you're right, we didn't. We just took it for granted that they were, and went on to discuss their merits by applying the tools of literary criticism that were established by those who had the expertise to do so. You seem to think I'm hung up on defending games' right to be validated AS ART - which is the furthest thing from my mind that could possibly be.
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jasong
New member
It's because the dialog of critical analysis requires an a priori recognition that this is an art form - without that we can't progress to develop the tools we need; you're constantly stuck at the point of origin.
OmegaFenix
The Legendary Troll Hunter
is this Games as Art or art inspired by games?
jasong
New member
Azimuth
New member
Lol. You constantly contradict yourself. Also, please substantiate that claim.
I mean, by your own assertion here, there's simply no reasonably critically evaluating shit games, because, by your own definitions, shit games won't feature - among other things - "mature themes" or anything of enduring worth (=ART). So there's basically no such thing as, say, something like Damnation - universally panned by critics, but apparently on no tenable pretext.
Really, it's like you yank this stuff out of your arse.
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