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Oooh yes. Looooooove unwrapping games! That new-smell is epic :love:Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategist01
Just wanted to say kudos to Chris for an article that spurned a rather enjoyable discussion :D
http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/funny/1/belly-dance.gif
By pirating, I'm trying to do my part in bringing down large companies who make these mistakes, I don't want them to continue poluting the industry and getting away with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycanthrope
Why should I pay and than go out of my way to fix thier mistakes? In my mind the publisher and devolper are one entity. If the publisher agrees to releace a game that is full of bugs than they are at just as much fault as the developer, if the deveopler agrees to hand over the rights of the game knowing the publisher as going add that restrictive DRM, they are at just as much fault. "But I didn't rape the little girl, my friend did it, I just recorded it and sold the videos."Quote:
I didn't pirate it or buy it. There was no reason for me to pirate it because I disagreed with the DRM to a point where even pirating it would support Ubisoft's beliefs that DRM is its solution.
I haven't gotten at least two Ubisoft games since they implemented that DRM (Settlers and Assassin's Creed 2, being the only two I can recall).
If you enjoyed it enough to play it, why didn't you buy it THEN pirate it and voice your concerns on the official forums? I sincerely doubt the implementation of the DRM was a choice on the developers' side. Ubisoft (publisher) owns the rights so there's not much that Ubisoft (developer--Montreal, specifically) can do about it. You can support the developer without necessarily supporting the decisions made by the publisher.
Also, Ubisoft has, from what I've heard, gotten rid of DRM for the most part, reducing it just to a check every time you play. I still don't believe this is good enough, so refuse to support them until they issue the mother of all apologies.
As above, you enjoyed it enough to play it. Crack it after, sure, but support what you enjoy.
Did you try re-installing it recently? WinLive won't register it because of some expired key bug and now the multiplayer is useless and you have to crack it to play the singleplayer. If these problems aren't adressed by the makers of the game, they don't deserve anything.Quote:
I've played Gears of War and didn't have a problem registering it (not that I'm saying you're lying). At least you bought it, so no complaints from me here ^.^
I never had any problems with SecuRom and D-tools, but had to download about a million cracks to get around that WinLive and Rockstar Social bullshit that has only one purpose, multiplayer and social networking, neither of which I wanted anything to do with, I just want to play the damned game! Rockstar and any WinLive games have since than been removed from potential buying lists and onto the torrent list. Your securom issue highlights my point even further, you shouldn't have had to send any e-mails in the 1st place. The game is supposed to just install and play.Quote:
Ugh... Don't get me started on GTA4. When I first got it SecuRom took serious issue with my installation of DaemonTools. E-mailing SecuRom, they just send you a file to copy over the original executable. Go SecuRom. Ever since then I started wondering what the point of DRM is if all you need to do is whine over at SecuRom and ta-da, they send you a legal crack to bypass the entire point of the DRM in the first place.
Again, I still bought it and enjoyed it.
I'm not talking about buying games off steam, I mean buying the game in a retail shop and than you need to activate it on steam. Another torrent list item. The new AVP and Saints Row 2 are the two mistakes I made.Quote:
I can't stand Steam, but when you do buy a game on Steam, you're paying for a digital copy. Fairly logical, no? Ergo, bandwidth is kind of the key factor in getting it from there to, well, you. If your internet connection isn't up to scratch then you probably shouldn't be using Steam.
I for one liked it better when gaming was the domain of shut-in outcasts, it meant that games were made with passion, not money. Shit like C&C4, IWnet and the Ubi DRM would never have been though of. Starcraft 2, MW2, BFBC2 and BlOps would all have had LAN support and the latter two would have been bug free. The entire concept of porting would never have had the chance to exist. And much, MUCh more. "Vote with your wallet" is the popular term, I do that, and I take it one step further by retaliating the only way I can.Quote:
This is sort of like the no-voters' mentality: "Why should I vote? It doesn't make a difference anyway."
Fact is that one vote does make a difference. A majority consists of lots and lots of single votes. Similarly a successful game is made up of lots and lots of single purchases. Gaming is a largely successful industry because of lots and lots of single purchases each time a game is released.
If no-one supported the gaming industry, you wouldn't have the luxury of pirating. Every single person you speak to who has bought a game has been the reason you had those games to pirate which you enjoyed. Thank them, otherwise the industry would've gone the way of the betamax.
Why should teh paying customer go out of thier way to get the thing to work because of the fault of the ones who wrote the software? As I've said, it's supposed to just work.Quote:
Windows 7? It's currently going for R1,074. I bought mine for R1,227 at the time of its release. It's the retail version, so I can format, reinstall, format, reinstall, rinse and repeat all I like. Even with my previous OEM XP, I was able to do that, the only problem was that I had to call up Microsoft and manually activate it after a while, then it was good to go again.
I'm afraid your argument isn't working so well here.
Ever consider I might just be a comercial user?Quote:
As for Windows Ultimate... well... why? Do you need some secret magical feature the rest of the world doesn't? Something entirely arbitrary which would never be utilised by a home user? Can you name one thing that you need Ultimate for without looking it up? Or is the appeal purely in the black box? Aesthetics FTW.
I'm sorry, but people who buy Ultimate either have money to burn or have really tiny e-peens and need something to brag about.
A program intended for commercial use. There are a multitude of freeware equivalents that would satisfy the average Joe's needs. Paint.NET comes to mind.
A program intended for commercial use. OpenOffice is a freeware (and brilliant) equivalent. Alternatively, if you HAVE to use MS Office (for whatever reason) at home or as a student, is R550 really that much to ask?
Ever heard of 7zip? Freeware, works like a charm for all archives.
Also commercial use, no?
Also intended for... you guessed it, commercial use.
Disagree. The only real basis of your argument is that you can't seem to differentiate between business/corporate software and software (with fantastic free options) for home (read:non-commercial) use.
Yes, I am spitefull, I'm elitist and entitled. And you know what? I'm proud of it! It means I won't take shit and I demand quality. People would not get away with peddling half-assed crap and screwing people over because they're cheap, greedy assholes if things were run with morrals instead of profit in mind.Quote:
I'm afraid I really don't understand your argument. You're a pirate because you're... spiteful?
And yet, you still play the games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven Gold
Lol. I stopped reading this paragraph right here.Quote:
Why should I pay and than go out of my way to fix thier mistakes? In my mind the publisher and devolper are one entity. If the publisher agrees to releace a game that is full of bugs than they are at just as much fault as the developer, if the deveopler agrees to hand over the rights of the game knowing the publisher as going add that restrictive DRM, they are at just as much fault. "But I didn't rape the little girl, my friend did it, I just recorded it and sold the videos."
How much bandwidth do you use up in an average month, downloading games? I'll bet it's more - a lot more - than Steam's mandatory updates. Also, you can't complain about bugs and other game issues, when you refuse to be part of the solution.Quote:
I'm not talking about buying games off steam, I mean buying the game in a retail shop and than you need to activate it on steam. Another torrent list item. The new AVP and Saints Row 2 are the two mistakes I made.
You say this like every single game released before 1995 was amazing. Also, I'm quite convinced you have absolutely no idea what "porting" means.Quote:
I for one liked it better when gaming was the domain of shut-in outcasts, it meant that games were made with passion, not money. Shit like C&C4, IWnet and the Ubi DRM would never have been though of. Starcraft 2, MW2, BFBC2 and BlOps would all have had LAN support and the latter two would have been bug free. The entire concept of porting would never have had the chance to exist. And much, MUCh more. "Vote with your wallet" is the popular term, I do that, and I take it one step further by retaliating the only way I can.
Furthermore, "vote with your wallet" means "don't buy the game", not "steal the game to punish the world because it's not good enough for you". Pirating software is utterly self-defeating. Not only are you actively vindicating efforts to circumvent piracy, you're fucking ruining it for everybody else.
And yet, not everybody has issues with the game. I realise you're woefully - and wilfully - ignorant of the process of game development, but try - it's hard, I know - to consider that with the almost infinite hardware variations that have to be supported these days, problems are kind of inevitable.Quote:
Why should teh paying customer go out of thier way to get the thing to work because of the fault of the ones who wrote the software? As I've said, it's supposed to just work.
And, again, stuff like DRM? It's because of people like you.
But you're not. You're an unemployed wannabe script kiddie living in your mom's house.Quote:
Ever consider I might just be a comercial user?
Lolirony. You're a cheap, greedy asshole with no morals. You said so yourself.Quote:
Yes, I am spitefull, I'm elitist and entitled. And you know what? I'm proud of it! It means I won't take shit and I demand quality. People would not get away with peddling half-assed crap and screwing people over because they're cheap, greedy assholes if things were run with morrals instead of profit in mind.
Romanticised ideal, but it doesn't work like that. By pirating, you also enforce their fears, you no longer become a voice in their market but a whiner who doesn't contribute TO the industry. It's like voting, you can't really complain about the government if you've done nothing to try change it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven Gold
The publisher owns the rights to the game, it's actually pretty rare that a developer owns rights to their own games. Developers need funding and investment, this comes from publishers, with stock-holders and board members who are usually entirely detached from the industry as a whole (why, I believe, it's so easy for DRM companies to sell their snake oil to them). It's also why independent developers like CDProjekt and, as czc said, Paradox should be supported, why games like Dragon Age and Mass Effect should be supported.Quote:
Why should I pay and than go out of my way to fix thier mistakes? In my mind the publisher and devolper are one entity. If the publisher agrees to releace a game that is full of bugs than they are at just as much fault as the developer, if the deveopler agrees to hand over the rights of the game knowing the publisher as going add that restrictive DRM, they are at just as much fault. "But I didn't rape the little girl, my friend did it, I just recorded it and sold the videos."
It's a kind of living proof that DRM doesn't work and truly great games sell like hotcakes. If, after that, you still insist on pirating then there is nothing that you are contributing to the industry. You become a faceless pirate, not a scorned or upset customer.
Publishers also regularly force deadlines on developers, sometimes unfairly. I remember Troika had many issues with their publishers, especially Activision :)
Developers are rarely your enemy.
Think I first played it about three weeks ago, actually. I bought a second-hand copy with an unused key, my other half bought his new off ebay. We installed the 6.4MB patch after installing and that was that. Patches aren't that unusual in games, are they?Quote:
Did you try re-installing it recently? WinLive won't register it because of some expired key bug and now the multiplayer is useless and you have to crack it to play the singleplayer. If these problems aren't adressed by the makers of the game, they don't deserve anything.
I agree. Well, partially. LIVE games have one advantage in multiplayer--ease of hooking up. Granted, at first you had to create a LIVE account pretending you lived in the US or the UK to get past the territorial discrimination, however, switching over the SA last November bagged me 800 points I spent on a cute avatar and a silly little costume. I don't own a 360, so it doesn't really faze me too much, but South Africans are still given the short end of the stick there, I believe--You have more features with a UK/US account than a ZA one.Quote:
I never had any problems with SecuRom and D-tools, but had to download about a million cracks to get around that WinLive and Rockstar Social bullshit that has only one purpose, multiplayer and social networking, neither of which I wanted anything to do with, I just want to play the damned game! Rockstar and any WinLive games have since than been removed from potential buying lists and onto the torrent list. Your securom issue highlights my point even further, you shouldn't have had to send any e-mails in the 1st place. The game is supposed to just install and play.
Resident Evil 5 and Gears were both incredible fun in co-op, courtesy of LIVE. While I don't really care too much for achievements, they're nice to show off (mostly to myself :p).
Regardless, LIVE was mostly for the multiplayer component of GTA, RE5 and Gears, if you wanted to play without it, you didn't need to use LIVE. However, I agree, you're a customer, you paid full price for the game, you are entitled to ALL of its features, not just the basics.
We'll have to see what Rockstar do with the next GTA; see if they make the same mistakes. Thing is, as far as the Rockstar Social Club thing went, many liked it. I didn't, I have XFire for uploading screenshots and videos, but the fact is that many wanted it, which is why it was there in the first place.
So you'd torrent it (read: download), but you won't install it on something that would occasionally patch it and keep it up to date and bug-free? Look, I can't stand Steam, it likes to get somewhat confused more often than a chicken with its head cut off. Sometimes it takes AGES to connect, other times it doesn't start up my games, sometimes, even after telling it that I'll manually update a game, it insists on trying to update it regardless. Things have gotten better but if I can avoid Steam, I will.Quote:
I'm not talking about buying games off steam, I mean buying the game in a retail shop and than you need to activate it on steam. Another torrent list item. The new AVP and Saints Row 2 are the two mistakes I made.
Here's a funny little factoid for you, I own 55 games on Steam. New Vegas, Dawn of War 2 and Last Remnant are the only games, I think, which were retail-bought using Steam. I can't say I've ever had a problem with them. Again, insert disc, put in serial, install like normal then play. The only difference is that your serial is locked to your Steam account.
It's also possible to play offline, but who'd want that if you get achievements? :p
I disagree, if gaming remained the domain of the shut-in outcast, we'd never have the AAA titles we see today. Casual gaming makes money, it's a huge earner, much bigger than the die-hard gamers. If it weren't for casual gamers' money filling the industry, most of us would be stuck playing Commander Keen. It's easy to hate casual gamers, you could even say that they're the biggest pirates and blame them for why certain publishers enforce DRM, but that would also mean looking in the mirror and seeing the similarities and risk being placed on the same page as them.Quote:
I for one liked it better when gaming was the domain of shut-in outcasts, it meant that games were made with passion, not money. Shit like C&C4, IWnet and the Ubi DRM would never have been though of. Starcraft 2, MW2, BFBC2 and BlOps would all have had LAN support and the latter two would have been bug free. The entire concept of porting would never have had the chance to exist. And much, MUCh more. "Vote with your wallet" is the popular term, I do that, and I take it one step further by retaliating the only way I can.
Then don't be a paying customer, but don't support the argument of DRM by pirating it either, otherwise your overblown sense of entitlement feeds the beast. If you enjoy a game enough to play it, buy it. Pirate it after, sure, spam their forums with the fact that you bought it, it sucks ballz0rz and you've pirated it to make it playable, "How's that you stupid fox? I bought your game, I think it's fantastic, just this tiny little issue... I had to pirate it to be able to play it, it's a broken game because of the DRM and idiocy you enforce."Quote:
Why should teh paying customer go out of thier way to get the thing to work because of the fault of the ones who wrote the software? As I've said, it's supposed to just work.
You then become a legitimate customer, with a legitimate concern and not a buzzing annoyance that contributes nothing under the misguided romanticised ideal of fighting the victimisation of clients by being a back-seat revolutionary. If you do nothing, you have nothing: no voice, no integrity, no game and no legitimacy.
As I said, pirates aren't lost revenue, a person that had no intention to buy a game is not lost revenue. If you had intended to buy it, then DRM pops up or some other legitimate concern as a customer, then yes, you are well-within your rights to change your mind about the game and sure, you are then considered lost revenue. If you still went on to play the game, it's difficult for me to think of it as lost revenue because that shows that you had no intention to buy it, you just wanted your cake and to eat it too.
It's difficult for me to think of you as a customer any longer when you're at their heels for not doing what you want but don't support them and air your legitimate concerns as a customer. There's a way to go about making a difference, being spiteful doesn't make a difference, it's apathy. Apathy has never been exactly... revolutionary.
If that were true, that would mean that you're making an income off of someone else's work without compensating them for it. That would be disgusting, actually.Quote:
Ever consider I might just be a comercial user?
My dear Raven, have you considered getting yourself a console? Your spiteful, elitist and self-entitled pride would likely be better-suited there, where DRM can't upset you. PC gaming is evidently not suited to you.Quote:
Yes, I am spitefull, I'm elitist and entitled. And you know what? I'm proud of it! It means I won't take shit and I demand quality. People would not get away with peddling half-assed crap and screwing people over because they're cheap, greedy assholes if things were run with morrals instead of profit in mind.
I hear that the 360, especially, is quite fun. Apparently you can take it to friends and LAN with them, you have the social aspect, the achievements, the avatar, no DRM, no real bugs (uniformity FTW).
I'm serious, get a console and get back to supporting the industry. All your concerns are legitimately addressed in one compact device.
/Laughs at people debating with Raven
Ive gone through all of this with him on multiple occasions. Debating with him is like debating with a particularly stubborn toadstool.
As long as someone is willing to interact, there's hope :p Maybe I'll learn something about the way he thinks, maybe interacting with him will change my point of view. Who knows :pQuote:
Originally Posted by OmegaFenix
I think Steam is an absolute blessing ... but given how you moan about downloading ... Aren't pirated copies downloaded anyway? If the bandwidth usage bothers you so much, get uncapped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven Gold
Essentially ... you're always full of bullshit Raven. Where the hell are you going to pay R3k for Win 7? Incredible Corruption? I paid R2,200 for my copy, and I haven't regretted it since. And if your key does get blocked ... it takes 2 minutes to unlock it again, it's a simple safety measure.Quote:
Now lets look other types of software that gets pirated.
Windows for example.
Why should I pay 3K for win7 ultimate, and I can only reinstall and update it a handfull of times (due to system formatting) before the key is blocked, while when I pirated it, I can install it however many times I want?
Photoshop is insanely expensive - I can agree on that much - especially if you're some private dude who just likes editing graphics/video/whatnot and not making money off the deal - I can see that the R20k-odd pricetag might be a bit of a big ask. However - there are freeware alternatives - GIMP, InkScape, Paint.NETQuote:
Photoshop. Pretty much the same reasons as above.
OpenOffice - version3 is as good. If you need an email client, Thunderbird is your friend.Quote:
MS Office. " " " "
7Zip existsQuote:
WinRar. " " " "
Not sure which particular piece of software you're referring to ... since there are several ... but alternatives exist.Quote:
Autodesk. " " " "
95% of the software running on my machine is freeware - and in many cases as good as, if not better than their paid for counterparts.Quote:
If things are going like that, buying software and supporting these trends is a bigger sin than piracy ever could be.
So what you're saying is that you are one of those leechers that doesn't seed back.Quote:
Any Steam game. Why should I pay for a game, than pay for bandwidth while I wait 2 weeks for the thing to patch up because there is a multiplayer bug I won't be experiencing because I won't be playing multiplayer, and when it IS done dowloading I log off, disconnect my internet, try and log in in offline mode, wait another 2 hours only to have there be some glitch somewhere and I have to go online, and now there is ANOTHER patch, so more bandwidth and 12 more hours of downloading. When Pirating it I can install, paste the cracks, and play.
Also with pirated games, you have to download cracked patches. So the thing about you pirate because of patches is moot.
Raven do you honestly believe you're "sticking it to gaming corporations" by pirating? Millions of people pirate. Millions more are actually decent enough to give developers what they deserve. Yes, some developers are assholes and don't deserve anything, so don't give it to them, but playing their games anyway? Isn't that the exact same thing?
I love buying games. I love supporting developers when they've clearly earned it. I hate developers and will never forgive them when they ruin games by making them unplayable just so pirates can't get to them, but I'm not about to pirate to "get back at them" or something stupid like that. Withdrawing support, yeah. I'm not gonna touch those games. Pirating them may as well be free publicity.
This is Raven Gold:
http://lawyer1point9.files.wordpress..._listening.jpg
Nasty hobbitses steals our precious scenes, makes gameses for everybodies.