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Oooh yes. Looooooove unwrapping games! That new-smell is epic :love:Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategist01
Just wanted to say kudos to Chris for an article that spurned a rather enjoyable discussion :D
http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/funny/1/belly-dance.gif
By pirating, I'm trying to do my part in bringing down large companies who make these mistakes, I don't want them to continue poluting the industry and getting away with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycanthrope
Why should I pay and than go out of my way to fix thier mistakes? In my mind the publisher and devolper are one entity. If the publisher agrees to releace a game that is full of bugs than they are at just as much fault as the developer, if the deveopler agrees to hand over the rights of the game knowing the publisher as going add that restrictive DRM, they are at just as much fault. "But I didn't rape the little girl, my friend did it, I just recorded it and sold the videos."Quote:
I didn't pirate it or buy it. There was no reason for me to pirate it because I disagreed with the DRM to a point where even pirating it would support Ubisoft's beliefs that DRM is its solution.
I haven't gotten at least two Ubisoft games since they implemented that DRM (Settlers and Assassin's Creed 2, being the only two I can recall).
If you enjoyed it enough to play it, why didn't you buy it THEN pirate it and voice your concerns on the official forums? I sincerely doubt the implementation of the DRM was a choice on the developers' side. Ubisoft (publisher) owns the rights so there's not much that Ubisoft (developer--Montreal, specifically) can do about it. You can support the developer without necessarily supporting the decisions made by the publisher.
Also, Ubisoft has, from what I've heard, gotten rid of DRM for the most part, reducing it just to a check every time you play. I still don't believe this is good enough, so refuse to support them until they issue the mother of all apologies.
As above, you enjoyed it enough to play it. Crack it after, sure, but support what you enjoy.
Did you try re-installing it recently? WinLive won't register it because of some expired key bug and now the multiplayer is useless and you have to crack it to play the singleplayer. If these problems aren't adressed by the makers of the game, they don't deserve anything.Quote:
I've played Gears of War and didn't have a problem registering it (not that I'm saying you're lying). At least you bought it, so no complaints from me here ^.^
I never had any problems with SecuRom and D-tools, but had to download about a million cracks to get around that WinLive and Rockstar Social bullshit that has only one purpose, multiplayer and social networking, neither of which I wanted anything to do with, I just want to play the damned game! Rockstar and any WinLive games have since than been removed from potential buying lists and onto the torrent list. Your securom issue highlights my point even further, you shouldn't have had to send any e-mails in the 1st place. The game is supposed to just install and play.Quote:
Ugh... Don't get me started on GTA4. When I first got it SecuRom took serious issue with my installation of DaemonTools. E-mailing SecuRom, they just send you a file to copy over the original executable. Go SecuRom. Ever since then I started wondering what the point of DRM is if all you need to do is whine over at SecuRom and ta-da, they send you a legal crack to bypass the entire point of the DRM in the first place.
Again, I still bought it and enjoyed it.
I'm not talking about buying games off steam, I mean buying the game in a retail shop and than you need to activate it on steam. Another torrent list item. The new AVP and Saints Row 2 are the two mistakes I made.Quote:
I can't stand Steam, but when you do buy a game on Steam, you're paying for a digital copy. Fairly logical, no? Ergo, bandwidth is kind of the key factor in getting it from there to, well, you. If your internet connection isn't up to scratch then you probably shouldn't be using Steam.
I for one liked it better when gaming was the domain of shut-in outcasts, it meant that games were made with passion, not money. Shit like C&C4, IWnet and the Ubi DRM would never have been though of. Starcraft 2, MW2, BFBC2 and BlOps would all have had LAN support and the latter two would have been bug free. The entire concept of porting would never have had the chance to exist. And much, MUCh more. "Vote with your wallet" is the popular term, I do that, and I take it one step further by retaliating the only way I can.Quote:
This is sort of like the no-voters' mentality: "Why should I vote? It doesn't make a difference anyway."
Fact is that one vote does make a difference. A majority consists of lots and lots of single votes. Similarly a successful game is made up of lots and lots of single purchases. Gaming is a largely successful industry because of lots and lots of single purchases each time a game is released.
If no-one supported the gaming industry, you wouldn't have the luxury of pirating. Every single person you speak to who has bought a game has been the reason you had those games to pirate which you enjoyed. Thank them, otherwise the industry would've gone the way of the betamax.
Why should teh paying customer go out of thier way to get the thing to work because of the fault of the ones who wrote the software? As I've said, it's supposed to just work.Quote:
Windows 7? It's currently going for R1,074. I bought mine for R1,227 at the time of its release. It's the retail version, so I can format, reinstall, format, reinstall, rinse and repeat all I like. Even with my previous OEM XP, I was able to do that, the only problem was that I had to call up Microsoft and manually activate it after a while, then it was good to go again.
I'm afraid your argument isn't working so well here.
Ever consider I might just be a comercial user?Quote:
As for Windows Ultimate... well... why? Do you need some secret magical feature the rest of the world doesn't? Something entirely arbitrary which would never be utilised by a home user? Can you name one thing that you need Ultimate for without looking it up? Or is the appeal purely in the black box? Aesthetics FTW.
I'm sorry, but people who buy Ultimate either have money to burn or have really tiny e-peens and need something to brag about.
A program intended for commercial use. There are a multitude of freeware equivalents that would satisfy the average Joe's needs. Paint.NET comes to mind.
A program intended for commercial use. OpenOffice is a freeware (and brilliant) equivalent. Alternatively, if you HAVE to use MS Office (for whatever reason) at home or as a student, is R550 really that much to ask?
Ever heard of 7zip? Freeware, works like a charm for all archives.
Also commercial use, no?
Also intended for... you guessed it, commercial use.
Disagree. The only real basis of your argument is that you can't seem to differentiate between business/corporate software and software (with fantastic free options) for home (read:non-commercial) use.
Yes, I am spitefull, I'm elitist and entitled. And you know what? I'm proud of it! It means I won't take shit and I demand quality. People would not get away with peddling half-assed crap and screwing people over because they're cheap, greedy assholes if things were run with morrals instead of profit in mind.Quote:
I'm afraid I really don't understand your argument. You're a pirate because you're... spiteful?
And yet, you still play the games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven Gold
Lol. I stopped reading this paragraph right here.Quote:
Why should I pay and than go out of my way to fix thier mistakes? In my mind the publisher and devolper are one entity. If the publisher agrees to releace a game that is full of bugs than they are at just as much fault as the developer, if the deveopler agrees to hand over the rights of the game knowing the publisher as going add that restrictive DRM, they are at just as much fault. "But I didn't rape the little girl, my friend did it, I just recorded it and sold the videos."
How much bandwidth do you use up in an average month, downloading games? I'll bet it's more - a lot more - than Steam's mandatory updates. Also, you can't complain about bugs and other game issues, when you refuse to be part of the solution.Quote:
I'm not talking about buying games off steam, I mean buying the game in a retail shop and than you need to activate it on steam. Another torrent list item. The new AVP and Saints Row 2 are the two mistakes I made.
You say this like every single game released before 1995 was amazing. Also, I'm quite convinced you have absolutely no idea what "porting" means.Quote:
I for one liked it better when gaming was the domain of shut-in outcasts, it meant that games were made with passion, not money. Shit like C&C4, IWnet and the Ubi DRM would never have been though of. Starcraft 2, MW2, BFBC2 and BlOps would all have had LAN support and the latter two would have been bug free. The entire concept of porting would never have had the chance to exist. And much, MUCh more. "Vote with your wallet" is the popular term, I do that, and I take it one step further by retaliating the only way I can.
Furthermore, "vote with your wallet" means "don't buy the game", not "steal the game to punish the world because it's not good enough for you". Pirating software is utterly self-defeating. Not only are you actively vindicating efforts to circumvent piracy, you're fucking ruining it for everybody else.
And yet, not everybody has issues with the game. I realise you're woefully - and wilfully - ignorant of the process of game development, but try - it's hard, I know - to consider that with the almost infinite hardware variations that have to be supported these days, problems are kind of inevitable.Quote:
Why should teh paying customer go out of thier way to get the thing to work because of the fault of the ones who wrote the software? As I've said, it's supposed to just work.
And, again, stuff like DRM? It's because of people like you.
But you're not. You're an unemployed wannabe script kiddie living in your mom's house.Quote:
Ever consider I might just be a comercial user?
Lolirony. You're a cheap, greedy asshole with no morals. You said so yourself.Quote:
Yes, I am spitefull, I'm elitist and entitled. And you know what? I'm proud of it! It means I won't take shit and I demand quality. People would not get away with peddling half-assed crap and screwing people over because they're cheap, greedy assholes if things were run with morrals instead of profit in mind.
Romanticised ideal, but it doesn't work like that. By pirating, you also enforce their fears, you no longer become a voice in their market but a whiner who doesn't contribute TO the industry. It's like voting, you can't really complain about the government if you've done nothing to try change it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven Gold
The publisher owns the rights to the game, it's actually pretty rare that a developer owns rights to their own games. Developers need funding and investment, this comes from publishers, with stock-holders and board members who are usually entirely detached from the industry as a whole (why, I believe, it's so easy for DRM companies to sell their snake oil to them). It's also why independent developers like CDProjekt and, as czc said, Paradox should be supported, why games like Dragon Age and Mass Effect should be supported.Quote:
Why should I pay and than go out of my way to fix thier mistakes? In my mind the publisher and devolper are one entity. If the publisher agrees to releace a game that is full of bugs than they are at just as much fault as the developer, if the deveopler agrees to hand over the rights of the game knowing the publisher as going add that restrictive DRM, they are at just as much fault. "But I didn't rape the little girl, my friend did it, I just recorded it and sold the videos."
It's a kind of living proof that DRM doesn't work and truly great games sell like hotcakes. If, after that, you still insist on pirating then there is nothing that you are contributing to the industry. You become a faceless pirate, not a scorned or upset customer.
Publishers also regularly force deadlines on developers, sometimes unfairly. I remember Troika had many issues with their publishers, especially Activision :)
Developers are rarely your enemy.
Think I first played it about three weeks ago, actually. I bought a second-hand copy with an unused key, my other half bought his new off ebay. We installed the 6.4MB patch after installing and that was that. Patches aren't that unusual in games, are they?Quote:
Did you try re-installing it recently? WinLive won't register it because of some expired key bug and now the multiplayer is useless and you have to crack it to play the singleplayer. If these problems aren't adressed by the makers of the game, they don't deserve anything.
I agree. Well, partially. LIVE games have one advantage in multiplayer--ease of hooking up. Granted, at first you had to create a LIVE account pretending you lived in the US or the UK to get past the territorial discrimination, however, switching over the SA last November bagged me 800 points I spent on a cute avatar and a silly little costume. I don't own a 360, so it doesn't really faze me too much, but South Africans are still given the short end of the stick there, I believe--You have more features with a UK/US account than a ZA one.Quote:
I never had any problems with SecuRom and D-tools, but had to download about a million cracks to get around that WinLive and Rockstar Social bullshit that has only one purpose, multiplayer and social networking, neither of which I wanted anything to do with, I just want to play the damned game! Rockstar and any WinLive games have since than been removed from potential buying lists and onto the torrent list. Your securom issue highlights my point even further, you shouldn't have had to send any e-mails in the 1st place. The game is supposed to just install and play.
Resident Evil 5 and Gears were both incredible fun in co-op, courtesy of LIVE. While I don't really care too much for achievements, they're nice to show off (mostly to myself :p).
Regardless, LIVE was mostly for the multiplayer component of GTA, RE5 and Gears, if you wanted to play without it, you didn't need to use LIVE. However, I agree, you're a customer, you paid full price for the game, you are entitled to ALL of its features, not just the basics.
We'll have to see what Rockstar do with the next GTA; see if they make the same mistakes. Thing is, as far as the Rockstar Social Club thing went, many liked it. I didn't, I have XFire for uploading screenshots and videos, but the fact is that many wanted it, which is why it was there in the first place.
So you'd torrent it (read: download), but you won't install it on something that would occasionally patch it and keep it up to date and bug-free? Look, I can't stand Steam, it likes to get somewhat confused more often than a chicken with its head cut off. Sometimes it takes AGES to connect, other times it doesn't start up my games, sometimes, even after telling it that I'll manually update a game, it insists on trying to update it regardless. Things have gotten better but if I can avoid Steam, I will.Quote:
I'm not talking about buying games off steam, I mean buying the game in a retail shop and than you need to activate it on steam. Another torrent list item. The new AVP and Saints Row 2 are the two mistakes I made.
Here's a funny little factoid for you, I own 55 games on Steam. New Vegas, Dawn of War 2 and Last Remnant are the only games, I think, which were retail-bought using Steam. I can't say I've ever had a problem with them. Again, insert disc, put in serial, install like normal then play. The only difference is that your serial is locked to your Steam account.
It's also possible to play offline, but who'd want that if you get achievements? :p
I disagree, if gaming remained the domain of the shut-in outcast, we'd never have the AAA titles we see today. Casual gaming makes money, it's a huge earner, much bigger than the die-hard gamers. If it weren't for casual gamers' money filling the industry, most of us would be stuck playing Commander Keen. It's easy to hate casual gamers, you could even say that they're the biggest pirates and blame them for why certain publishers enforce DRM, but that would also mean looking in the mirror and seeing the similarities and risk being placed on the same page as them.Quote:
I for one liked it better when gaming was the domain of shut-in outcasts, it meant that games were made with passion, not money. Shit like C&C4, IWnet and the Ubi DRM would never have been though of. Starcraft 2, MW2, BFBC2 and BlOps would all have had LAN support and the latter two would have been bug free. The entire concept of porting would never have had the chance to exist. And much, MUCh more. "Vote with your wallet" is the popular term, I do that, and I take it one step further by retaliating the only way I can.
Then don't be a paying customer, but don't support the argument of DRM by pirating it either, otherwise your overblown sense of entitlement feeds the beast. If you enjoy a game enough to play it, buy it. Pirate it after, sure, spam their forums with the fact that you bought it, it sucks ballz0rz and you've pirated it to make it playable, "How's that you stupid fox? I bought your game, I think it's fantastic, just this tiny little issue... I had to pirate it to be able to play it, it's a broken game because of the DRM and idiocy you enforce."Quote:
Why should teh paying customer go out of thier way to get the thing to work because of the fault of the ones who wrote the software? As I've said, it's supposed to just work.
You then become a legitimate customer, with a legitimate concern and not a buzzing annoyance that contributes nothing under the misguided romanticised ideal of fighting the victimisation of clients by being a back-seat revolutionary. If you do nothing, you have nothing: no voice, no integrity, no game and no legitimacy.
As I said, pirates aren't lost revenue, a person that had no intention to buy a game is not lost revenue. If you had intended to buy it, then DRM pops up or some other legitimate concern as a customer, then yes, you are well-within your rights to change your mind about the game and sure, you are then considered lost revenue. If you still went on to play the game, it's difficult for me to think of it as lost revenue because that shows that you had no intention to buy it, you just wanted your cake and to eat it too.
It's difficult for me to think of you as a customer any longer when you're at their heels for not doing what you want but don't support them and air your legitimate concerns as a customer. There's a way to go about making a difference, being spiteful doesn't make a difference, it's apathy. Apathy has never been exactly... revolutionary.
If that were true, that would mean that you're making an income off of someone else's work without compensating them for it. That would be disgusting, actually.Quote:
Ever consider I might just be a comercial user?
My dear Raven, have you considered getting yourself a console? Your spiteful, elitist and self-entitled pride would likely be better-suited there, where DRM can't upset you. PC gaming is evidently not suited to you.Quote:
Yes, I am spitefull, I'm elitist and entitled. And you know what? I'm proud of it! It means I won't take shit and I demand quality. People would not get away with peddling half-assed crap and screwing people over because they're cheap, greedy assholes if things were run with morrals instead of profit in mind.
I hear that the 360, especially, is quite fun. Apparently you can take it to friends and LAN with them, you have the social aspect, the achievements, the avatar, no DRM, no real bugs (uniformity FTW).
I'm serious, get a console and get back to supporting the industry. All your concerns are legitimately addressed in one compact device.
/Laughs at people debating with Raven
Ive gone through all of this with him on multiple occasions. Debating with him is like debating with a particularly stubborn toadstool.
As long as someone is willing to interact, there's hope :p Maybe I'll learn something about the way he thinks, maybe interacting with him will change my point of view. Who knows :pQuote:
Originally Posted by OmegaFenix
I think Steam is an absolute blessing ... but given how you moan about downloading ... Aren't pirated copies downloaded anyway? If the bandwidth usage bothers you so much, get uncapped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven Gold
Essentially ... you're always full of bullshit Raven. Where the hell are you going to pay R3k for Win 7? Incredible Corruption? I paid R2,200 for my copy, and I haven't regretted it since. And if your key does get blocked ... it takes 2 minutes to unlock it again, it's a simple safety measure.Quote:
Now lets look other types of software that gets pirated.
Windows for example.
Why should I pay 3K for win7 ultimate, and I can only reinstall and update it a handfull of times (due to system formatting) before the key is blocked, while when I pirated it, I can install it however many times I want?
Photoshop is insanely expensive - I can agree on that much - especially if you're some private dude who just likes editing graphics/video/whatnot and not making money off the deal - I can see that the R20k-odd pricetag might be a bit of a big ask. However - there are freeware alternatives - GIMP, InkScape, Paint.NETQuote:
Photoshop. Pretty much the same reasons as above.
OpenOffice - version3 is as good. If you need an email client, Thunderbird is your friend.Quote:
MS Office. " " " "
7Zip existsQuote:
WinRar. " " " "
Not sure which particular piece of software you're referring to ... since there are several ... but alternatives exist.Quote:
Autodesk. " " " "
95% of the software running on my machine is freeware - and in many cases as good as, if not better than their paid for counterparts.Quote:
If things are going like that, buying software and supporting these trends is a bigger sin than piracy ever could be.
So what you're saying is that you are one of those leechers that doesn't seed back.Quote:
Any Steam game. Why should I pay for a game, than pay for bandwidth while I wait 2 weeks for the thing to patch up because there is a multiplayer bug I won't be experiencing because I won't be playing multiplayer, and when it IS done dowloading I log off, disconnect my internet, try and log in in offline mode, wait another 2 hours only to have there be some glitch somewhere and I have to go online, and now there is ANOTHER patch, so more bandwidth and 12 more hours of downloading. When Pirating it I can install, paste the cracks, and play.
Also with pirated games, you have to download cracked patches. So the thing about you pirate because of patches is moot.
Raven do you honestly believe you're "sticking it to gaming corporations" by pirating? Millions of people pirate. Millions more are actually decent enough to give developers what they deserve. Yes, some developers are assholes and don't deserve anything, so don't give it to them, but playing their games anyway? Isn't that the exact same thing?
I love buying games. I love supporting developers when they've clearly earned it. I hate developers and will never forgive them when they ruin games by making them unplayable just so pirates can't get to them, but I'm not about to pirate to "get back at them" or something stupid like that. Withdrawing support, yeah. I'm not gonna touch those games. Pirating them may as well be free publicity.
This is Raven Gold:
http://lawyer1point9.files.wordpress..._listening.jpg
Nasty hobbitses steals our precious scenes, makes gameses for everybodies.
Bwhahahahahahaha!Quote:
Originally Posted by Azimuth
^5
Sharp Azi, sharp!! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Azimuth
Holywallsoftextballs!
I can't figure out if Raven is just trying to troll us.
Look at this:
Do you really not realise that the reason Ubi DRM, SC2 with no LAN etc. exists is because you pirate the games? If noone had ever pirated games, DRM would not exist. You claim to pirate games because of restrictive DRM, but restrictive DRM exists because you pirate games. Your argument is circular (read: stupid).Quote:
I for one liked it better when gaming was the domain of shut-in outcasts, it meant that games were made with passion, not money. Shit like C&C4, IWnet and the Ubi DRM would never have been though of. Starcraft 2, MW2, BFBC2 and BlOps would all have had LAN support and the latter two would have been bug free. The entire concept of porting would never have had the chance to exist. And much, MUCh more. "Vote with your wallet" is the popular term, I do that, and I take it one step further by retaliating the only way I can.
Come on now Raven, just be honest. If those Ubi games had no DRM whatsoever, you still would have pirated them; are you really going to try and pretend otherwise? Your one and only motivation is not paying for something you can get for free without consequence, everything else is just fluff and rationalisation. It's the same thing I said in the article - if you're going to pirate, at least be honest about your reasons.
Sad thing is he is honest, he really believe the stuff that sprouts forth from his posts everytime this topic comes up. Everything pre y2k is awesome and everything made in the last 10 years is shit and doesn't "deserve" his cash thus he pirates it to stick it to the man and make studios make games like in the good old day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Subversion
And in the meantime he gets himself stuck in an infinite loop of idiot with his personal brand of twisted logic. Games are shit - so logically speaking he shouldn't be playing them, let alone pirate them. Yet, shitty or not, he still DOES play them.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaFenix
And because they're sooooo shitty ... they get scores like:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven Gold
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven Gold
I didn't have the patience to look for more gems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven Gold
And the best part is how he expects games to be completely bug-free on launch. Wakey-wakey Raven ... it's the 21st Century and the latest blockbusters are no longer games consisting of 25 files and a few thousand lines of code you can fit onto a single floppy disk.
It's next to impossible to test for every possible eventuality, whereas with thousands of users playing the game and pushing it to the limits is bound to pop up something that the devs missed. In case you don't get the idea, they are busy working and don't really have time to play the game through several times in order to spot all the bugs you are so epically good at apparently finding.
As for your little philosphy of "sticking it to the man" - hahaha ... do you think they even notice you? At least, as a legal buyer, I'm worth a singular unit. Like 1 out of 10,000 purchasers. You pirates are a percentage of one unsightly lump, kinda like a cancer. You're not even worth a full number. Your feedback counts for nothing where bugs are concerned.
And like any cancer, it needs to be treated and removed ... hence DRM. If the cancer goes, so does the treatment.
You ... my lad ... are the cause, and you're most definitely not going to be the cure. You are a shining example of the most base of human desires and emotions - greed, laziness, self-entitlement. You want everything for nothing - but at least you give the rest of us something to measure ourselves against and feel good about ourselves.
@Fox Dude I know i've stopped debating with him ages ago.
That was me pressing the stop key ... I don't think I'm actually going to pay attention to anything he says from this point forward.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaFenix
Respect Shadow.... Calling a spade a spade! Well said!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowfox
Piracy is the reason we retrenched 55 people at our company in December. So congratulations, you are the reason that 55 bread winners cannot feed their families so you just fucked over 242(statistically) people.
Good going.
Thats the question I've been asking all along. If the games are so horrible why play them.Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowfox
Respect fox, you've said it straight. Greed and self-entitlement.
Sorry to hear that man, what industry?Quote:
Originally Posted by Imber
Who are you talking to?Quote:
Originally Posted by Imber
I am no supporter of piracy but your logic, is well, illogical. You obviously aren't the brains of your operation.
The McNuggets industry....Quote:
Originally Posted by czc
@ Blaze i think he/she/it is talking at raven
Wow....feel the love. Perhaps you want to share your thoughts as to why there is fault in his/her logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaze786
DRM is just a convenient excuse for pirates, they have been pirating well before drm ever came about. Drm is just a way to keep the corporate suits happy, its a way for the developer/publisher to tell the shareholder they are trying. DRM doesn't harm the pirate it harms the legitimate paying customer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Subversion
I seriously doubt piracy would be the only reason the company had to let go of 55 people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Imber
Simple, Not even 1 in 3 (See I to can make up statistics) pirated downloads would have been a sale? How is it the piracy alone cause the company he works for to shed 55 people?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fivel
I am sorry that 55 people lost there jobs, but to put the blame solely on piracy is negligent. I gaurantee you, fund mis-management, hiring of unnecessary staff, etc. Had a huge part to play.
I would LOVE to know the company and the products they develop.
It goes without saying that cost management is essential to any business, but without a strong revenue stream, which would be directly affected by piracy, you would be doomed as well.
Understanding this would really help the discussion :)Quote:
I would LOVE to know the company and the products they develop.
1: I baught Shadow of Chernobyl and Clear Sky, and I'm gonna buy CoP as soon as I can find it, it's game worth supporting with no crap that screws over the paying customer. My gameplay mods for the games are personal preference. I like it when my bullets hits the guy's head when I line the sights up with his head.Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowfox
2: starcraft and AC2 were both greath games, yes, but the systems around them are fucked, I baught starcraft 2, but I'm not going to buy AC2 or any other ubisoft game untill a full removal of the online DRM is released. Before the DRM came out, I did buy every singe Ubisoft game I've ever played. Starcraft, the reason why I won't buy the next one is because after the last few patches, B-net's been fucking up any offline functionality, things like deleting the skirmish maps if it's not played for a few days and ontop of that, I can't save any of said patches to my harddrive so I'm gonna have to wait a month for the crap to download if I ever want to play again.
And of course I know bugs are natural, but than you get things that are completely unnecessary, like Lycans SecuRom thing. That wasn't even a bug, it was built in deliberatly, and and they KNEW it would cause a problem, but they still left it on. Blops was riddled with bugs because R&D for the game was non-exsistant, and single solitary reason anybody baught it and MW2 was because of massive advertisement. (also probably the reason there was no money for R&D in the 1st place)
Piracy didn't suddenly appear, its been around for a long time...If you operate in an industry where it is a risk factor you need to take it into consideration when doing your planning,forecasting,ect If you have to let go of 55 people I believe it is due to poor management.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fivel
Come on Stef, you are really over simplifying it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan9
I disagree, like I said before--piracy is the con-artist's greatest foe. If a product is bad, it won't sell nor does it deserve to, however much "effort" or shiny packaging and snake-oil sales pitches are put into it. Bad business management and a lack of understanding your market are the reasons (if what he says is even true) his company retrenched 55 folk. He's also working heavily on the assumption that those "pirates" would even have bought his product.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fivel
Sorry, piracy isn't to blame.
Spotted this post earlier on MyBB:
I think it's worth adding to this discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valerion
Lycanthrope posted a link to this thread, and I quickly skimmed it. My thoughts:
I would not buy a new game sight unseen, unless I trust the development house. I like RPG's, so I tend to buy BioWare games. Even so, it took a friend of mine months to convince me to even look at Mass Effect, because of all the DRM EA had put into it. I liked the game and played ME2 as well. It took a long time for me to buy DA:O for the first time, due to exactly the same reason. I only bought it 2 months ago, and only because EA had a huge special running on it.
I bought Sins of a Solar Empire a long time ago, based on a demo version of the game. Without that I would never have even looked at the game. Yes, there were reviews, but I purchase perhaps 1 game every 2 or 3 months, so stay with the development houses I know. I ended up loving the game, and buying all the add-ons. And I started buying a few more games via Impulse.
Speaking of SoaSE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sins_of_a_Solar_Empire) - Stardock has said that they won't put any DRM on it, and they didn't. You can copy the game freely for your friends in a LAN environment, but you need Impulse to download updates. As such, anyone can buy the game. Here in SA it was on the shelves at Look and Listen for less than a week "Because people don't buy such games". Now, for a game with no protection whatsoever, it sold over 500,000 copies, with 200,000 in the first week of release. So, does lack of DRM ensure that your games will be pirated and you won't make a profit on it?
Incidently, this is also the last time I tried to buy a game in a games shop, since I had to (at great expense) purchse it via Have2Have anyway. I use them to browse what's available, but I decided to never buy from one again, if I can possibly help it. I only buy online now, via Steam and Impulse most of the time, though I have bought from the EA store as well. And if the games distributor feels I don't deserve to get it via Steam or Impulse (quite a few games are region-limited), then they and the games developer don't deserve my money either. Yes, this has caused me to lose out on nice deals (e.g. DA2 Signature Edition), but that's my choice at the end of the day and I stand by it.
To add to the discussion, it seems that a pre-release version of Crysis 2 has been leaked, source here: http://www.tweakguides.com/
Ly, you misunderstand my response to Stef....mis management will contribute to any companies down fall, but it is not that simple. Take for example development of a game, it can take between 1 and 3 years to complete, market, launch, ship, support etc. Let's assume a company is a startup and does not have existing capital resources like an EA, Activision, Blizzard et al.
You will need to find funding somewhere, either via venture capital or loans etc which you then you use to cover your development etc cost. You revenue stream is currently zero and will remain so until your game hits the market. As part of your business plan, you need to have projected sales, which would include an assumption on the level of piracy. If your piracy level is far higher than anticipated, your business model will fail - very little to do with mismanagement IMHO. I am assuming a good game here etc.
Is piracy the only reason the company failed - no, but it sure would have had a direct impact on the revenue stream and therefore the ability of the company to settle debts/meet obligations. Yes, my assumption is that piracy is a lost sale in this case, which is pretty much my world view.
Sins is actually one of my all-time favourite examples of the futility of DRM, as is Minecraft, World of Goo and <insert successful and easily pirated indie game here>. They're also prime examples of how people with the intention to buy, regardless of easily-accessible free versions, will buy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valerion
It's all about your market. When World of Goo first was released, I really didn't see the appeal at all. I pirated it, I loved it, I bought it (full price on Steam, nonetheless). I also support those humble indie bundles although, admittedly, there was only one game worth getting and another with potential in the last bundle, whereas the rest were largely rubbish I wouldn't have given a cent to. However, they piggybacked off of the demand for a successful indie game and made money from it.
I don't really understand this paragraph :wtf:Quote:
Incidently, this is also the last time I tried to buy a game in a games shop, since I had to (at great expense) purchse it via Have2Have anyway. I use them to browse what's available, but I decided to never buy from one again, if I can possibly help it. I only buy online now, via Steam and Impulse most of the time, though I have bought from the EA store as well. And if the games distributor feels I don't deserve to get it via Steam or Impulse (quite a few games are region-limited), then they and the games developer don't deserve my money either. Yes, this has caused me to lose out on nice deals (e.g. DA2 Signature Edition), but that's my choice at the end of the day and I stand by it.
You buy digital because...?
Oh, and welcome to MyGaming :D
Want to take bets on its success? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Fivel
I can't agree with you. No amount of piracy assumption (or piracy in and of itself) would affect sales negatively if it is a good game. The only time, I feel, piracy would affect sales negatively is if a game is bad. The only time a bad game would get "good" sales is if you put people in isolation so that they can't communicate with each other, write reviews, pirate, lend, borrow or otherwise share the experience and instead leave everything up to the box art.Quote:
Ly, you misunderstand my response to Stef....mis management will contribute to any companies down fall, but it is not that simple. Take for example development of a game, it can take between 1 and 3 years to complete, market, launch, ship, support etc. Let's assume a company is a startup and does not have existing capital resources like an EA, Activision, Blizzard et al.
You will need to find funding somewhere, either via venture capital or loans etc which you then you use to cover your development etc cost. You revenue stream is currently zero and will remain so until your game hits the market. As part of your business plan, you need to have projected sales, which would include an assumption on the level of piracy. If your piracy level is far higher than anticipated, your business model will fail - very little to do with mismanagement IMHO. I am assuming a good game here etc.
Let's assume there's a developer who came up with a game of some sort. The only time his game sales would fail is if his SALES were far LOWER than he anticipated. You can't blame piracy for that if you consider that piracy isn't a lost sale.
A lost sale, in my mind, is a sale that would not happen because of:
Bad quality
Customer victimisation (DRM)
Counterfeit goods
Quality and DRM are the responsibilities of the developer and publisher respectively. Counterfeit goods are a lost sale because people who buy counterfeit (intentionally or unintentionally) generally won't buy again.
Piracy doesn't constitute a lost sale because people who pirate without the intention of buying, would never have bought in the first place; they'd find out or play some other way irrespective of piracy. People who pirate with the intention of buying, will buy regardless.
Piracy is an excuse, a scapegoat. It is only part of the reason the company failed if their product couldn't meet quality expectations. You seriously want to tell me that a company of 55 made a decent product (there are successful game developers who have 12 fixed staff) that failed to find its target market because of piracy? I can't buy that.Quote:
Is piracy the only reason the company failed - no, but it sure would have had a direct impact on the revenue stream and therefore the ability of the company to settle debts/meet obligations. Yes, my assumption is that piracy is a lost sale in this case, which is pretty much my world view.
I would still put that down to bad management, bad forecasting. Piracy levels haven't had a sudden surge, in fact a lot of the reports I have read is that software piracy % wise is actual down. To me its like the clothing industry blaming counterfeits for poor financial performance. To me in these 2 industries piracy and counterfeiting are 2 of the major risks you need to take into consideration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fivel
Not saying piracy isn't a problem, it is a major problem. But for me its never the reason why a company fails, bad management of the risks are usually much more of an issue.
Don't agree with piracy = a lost sale. Some of it sure but a lot of pirates are just freeloaders who never ever had the attention to buy the product, they were never a potential sale.
Well, counterfeiting is a problem. It's not like some poor family stitching the Fifa 2010 logo and the flag of their favourite team on their own shirts, pants, whatever--it's a bunch of people making money off of someone else's label/work by selling it as the real thing for much less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan9
I can't abide by counterfeiting. I see piracy as a library and to use Valerion's quote:
I found my favourite authors in libraries, some of my favourite games on badly-labelled discs and others in torrents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valerion
That is what piracy is to me. Counterfeiting crosses the border that separates what is acceptable to what is undeniably criminal and irrefutably damaging to developers, publishers, authors, musicians and artists.
Agreed :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan9
Both are problems and both are risks in their specific industries that you need to be aware of and take measures to counter when entering those industries...
If you say that piracy isn't a lost sale then it is neither a problem nor is it a risk to your industry. If your industry attempts to turn pirates into buyers then it's only natural that your industry will end up with the short end of the stick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan9
I will agree that an industry like gaming, specifically, needs to adapt to realise that it cannot both fend off pirates and please customers simultaneously. It also needs to adapt to realise that pirates aren't their market.
Whenever I think of DRM, I think of the last time I purchased a book at Exclusive Books. Eventually, while reading, I got to a page with a large security tag sticker stuck onto one of the pages, obviously to set off an alarm if someone tries to leave without paying for the book. Legitimate customer, legitimate purchase, yet for all intents and purposes I paid full-price for damaged goods.
DRM is an offensive-smelling snake-oil sold to publishers by spindoctoring DRM companies. They're like those mongrel games in the humble-bundle piggybacking off of the success of other titles. Everyone knows DRM doesn't work, every customer in the world is offended by it to one extent or another, yet it's still implemented.
Piracy, really, isn't the problem. It's the pre-concocted bullshittery of how piracy damages and ruins everything under the sun that is the problem. Pirates don't end up with the short end of the stick, we do. Pirates also don't buy games, we do.
And yet modest sales are blamed on piracy. 5,000,000 sales on a PC but 10,000,000 on a console is blamed on piracy and not the fact that consoles are more easily accessible and readily available. The failure and misgivings of a company gets blamed on piracy.
It is my firm belief that if you want to convert pirates into paying customers then approach them. Don't threaten them, don't harass them, don't throw your toys out of the cot at them and don't drag your customers down on your infantile path of self-righteousness. Do what the Minecraft developer did, embrace it, appeal to them as people and make a success out of it.
As far as I'm concerned, that's the only legitimate countermeasure to take regarding piracy.
I can't put piracy and counterfeiting on the same page: one caters to the individual's personal intent and the other financially exploits the individual at the expense of the developer by a criminal.
It's completely off-topic, so I won't say too much about it. CD's and DVD's tend to scratch, I found. Also, since the distributors are afraid of piracy, they put all sorts of protection on (like StarForce), that also breaks legitimate applications. But what really got to me was the enforcement of what is popular. I can find a full shelf of The Sims, but a Sci-Fi RTS stays on the shelf for less than a week. If I ask for a copy to be ordered I simply get a shrug, "No one is interested in importing it into SA. You're out of luck." Try to get a 3/4 year old game from them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycanthrope
On Steam all the old games are there, I can buy them at my leisure, without leaving my study. I can compare prices between editions, I can re-download the data if I manage to wipe my PC. It's often cheaper, even if you don't count the Steam specials.
Other than being able to hold a box in my hands, what benefit do I get from the brick and mortar stores that I have to fall in with their plans?
And thanks for the welcome :)