Removing DRM could decrease piracy say people who study these things
Does restrictive DRM act as a deterrent to legitimate customers?
Removing DRM could decrease piracy say people who study these things
Does restrictive DRM act as a deterrent to legitimate customers?
Well, that's pretty obvious. Just glad someone is actually saying it out loud for once.
A couple of games I have flat-out refused to buy BECAUSE of DRM:Quote:
Originally Posted by James
Settlers 7
The Assassin's Creed series
Divinity: Ego Draconis
From Dust (bought it but requested a refund because of the damned DRM)
Any game that makes use of "activation limits" or a Ubisoft-style "permanent internet connection" is immediately a no-sale for me, however much I may have wanted it.
Specifically with games like Divinity: Ego Draconis, games that rely on EVERY sale, DRM does vastly more damage than good.
Yeah so wanted Settlers 7 but yeah after hearing the horror story's here on mygaming about the DRM I gave it a skip.
Also skiped from dust because of the DRM.
I wonder how much they spent on that research - I could've told them as much for nothing.
Well ... for a coupla hundred bucks maybe, my time's valuable after all :p
But as Lycan said, I've actually passed over a couple of games I might otherwise have bought, primarily because of their DRM - and Ubisoft is a prime example. Now, if just me and Lycan and maybe a couple of hundred others - a small percentage really - have passed, imagine how many thousands in potential revenue they've lost, simply because they've been too stubborn to see past their own foolishness.
Not that I expect it to get any better anytime soon - nothing's as hard to convince as a suit who's only concerned about his bank balance.
I don't know how they ever figured it could work, DRM doesn't affect pirates because they are pirates, and will get around it. It only punishes legitimate owners of software, so people who eg. don't have an internet connection or don't want to put up with DRM crap, will either not buy your products, or will pirate them instead. Unless they thought that DRM was uncrackable for some reason, I just can't see how they figured that it would help with piracy really
I one word to show it works:Quote:
Originally Posted by James
CDProjectRed
I fully agree with shadowfox and Lycanthrope. but also think the reasoning behind DRM is to delay the pirates getting it and then getting few of those sale on people that cant wait a few days for the crack. A good example would be some thing like splinter cell if i remember only got a crack for it after a year. How many would be pirates went and bought it after few months of no crack.
Well-said!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pr⊕phet
Eek! I just gave you your third bar! Damnit! :p
/mental note: neg-rep Proph
Probably none. "A few months" without something and you really couldn't care less any more :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Weasley
Pretty much how I feel about the games I ended up not getting because of DRM. It stops mattering when you've committed to that.
Well with me if it is a game that I really enjoy I will buy the original, if it is a game that I am not too keen on then I won't get it at all. But if that game does have always online requirement (diablo 3 I am looking at you) I will try and get the pirated version as well. There is no reason why somebody shouldn't buy the original just because of the online requirement. You can always use the pirated version to play and keep original version in mint condition (if retail). That way you can always play and still support the developer
On the great ethical plane of morality I'd rather abstain from even bothering to play the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by simon
If you buy it, you in effect support that DRM scheme by allowing studies/developers/whatever to think that somehow it "works" when it actually doesn't.
If you pirate it, you in effect support DRM by allowing studies/developer/whatever to think that somehow DRM isn't "effective" enough.
If, however, you neither buy nor pirate the worthless piece of trash, you can comfortably point out that the DRM was the driving force behind that decision. Unfortunately, nine times out of ten piracy gets blamed then anyway or touted as a success :rolleyes:
In an ideal world developers would listen to the people who buy their games first and foremost and ignore the rest. Essentially then, if the people who buy their games say, "Look, that DRM thing you're so fond of? Yeah, it doesn't work and if you don't remove it from your most recent game and keep it out of your future games, I will no longer support you" they'd listen. Unfortunately, they kind of don't.
Really though, I'm not against piracy: I've said countless times before that it contributed to my love of gaming and that in the past, through piracy, I discovered a number of games I would never have even bothered looking at had I not originally pirated them. Games I have since bought a number of times over for friends, my significant other and have pre-ordered sequels of.
However, piracy was something I did, for the most part, as a broke kid. However, I still understand that there are people who couldn't be arsed to buy media and the fact remains that those are people who would never buy media in the first place. They are not a target market, they are not the people publishers/developers/etc are supposed to appeal to or try to turn into buyers. Doing that is a failed ideology akin to shooting yourself in the foot.
Well let's put it this way. Risen 2, which I know you are interested in will be making use of Steam. While Steam is better then always on methods such as Ubisoft's shitty DRM, it still is a somewhat intrusive form of DRM.
I love Piranha Bytes and will buy this game because I loved Risen 1 and all the Gothic's, in fact they are all in my top 5 games, but if I uninstall the game and need to then download it to get it back on my computer (not too sure on Steam doings as the only game I have using Steam at the moment is Darksiders) then yes I will get a pirate version as well because my internet comes from the abyss of hellkom.
Now for a game that you are really looking forward to, would you really not buy it or play it just because of the DRM inconvenience. Let's face it, the developers will probably never stop using there DRM for quite a long time at least, but if you don't play/buy the game because of it you will miss out on so many gems in the first place.
I only found out about Gothic because of a pirated copy and bought the first original copy I saw, because I loved it so dearly, so yeah I also agree that piracy can be a good thing
Dude, not to be rude, but it is Digital Distribution. So if you do delete it, you will need to re download it. Unless you back it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by simon
Right click -> Create backup -> burn to DVDQuote:
but if I uninstall the game and need to then download it to get it back on my computer (not too sure on Steam doings as the only game I have using Steam at the moment is Darksiders) then yes I will get a pirate version as well because my internet comes from the abyss of hellkom.
... 10seconds worth of googling would have gotten you your solution.
Yes there have been quite a few games that I would have bought but didn't because of the stupid DRM. Settlers 7 was one that was already mentioned, Assassin's Creed 2 on release and a few others I don't recall since they just became non-entities to me. On REALLY big releases that you just must have well then you bite the DRM bullet since you figure the pain is worth the reward but the problem is that only applies to very few titles and most of the fringe titles that 'you probably would have bought' just don't warrant you having to deal with DRM so those get a skip.Quote:
Now for a game that you are really looking forward to, would you really not buy it or play it just because of the DRM inconvenience.
I'm with Lyc in that if it's not worth buying it's not worth playing.
Actually they do remove the DRM, like Assassin's Creed 2 which I bought a year after release when the DRM was gone. Other games that have had their DRM removed weeks/months after release include Bioshock, Mass Effect, Spore, From Dust and numerous others.Quote:
Let's face it, the developers will probably never stop using there DRM for quite a long time at least, but if you don't play/buy the game because of it you will miss out on so many gems in the first place.
I have no problem with Steam. It works, your games are always readily-available, it keeps games updated, there is no need for other third-party (actually intrusive) DRM like rootkits, activation limits, etc and it's entirely possible to play offline. Steamworks games also have achievements which, while not everyone's cup of tea, makes for some added replayability just to see or do things you would otherwise not have.Quote:
Originally Posted by simon
Put it this way: I own physical copies of a number of my games, including the Gothic series (minus the shitty ones of which I will not speak), I've basically bought them all over again on Steam. My original retail copies are kept safe and I have a digital version which works as well as you'd expect.
Steam isn't perfect, of course. It has its disadvantages too such as resale, specifically. But that's not an issue for someone like me who will never sell his games anyway.
If I had to choose between a Steamworks game and a Securom/Ubisoft-DRM game it would be an easy choice.
Hell, the only reason I haven't bought Risen again on Steam is because it has Tages of all bloody things as well. As much as I love the game, I won't support a game using DRM of that nature.
I'm also bloody sick of Games for Windows Live.
Also, regarding your uninstalling of Steam games... Yeah, I have a separate 1TB drive dedicated to Steam :p
I don't uninstall Steam games :D
You've just hit a point I've been wondering about for a while: Assassin's Creed 2 and Brotherhood don't have DRM any more?Quote:
Originally Posted by MOnk
Been eyeballing them for a while but really don't want to put money towards them otherwise.
They removed the always-on DRM from AC2 and never had it in ACB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycanthrope
*not 100% sure if you still need to be online to start the game with the UbiLauncher, didn't actually pay attention to that.
Really? I'm impressed!Quote:
Originally Posted by MOnk
How does it work in AC2 now? Actually, how does it work in either?
There's really just nothing now?
That's excellent news :3
But then what the hell were they thinking with From Dust? O.o'
I was sure there were more gamer scientists, cos they would have known this already and have saved some money.
with which they could buy more games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycanthrope
They patched the launcher in some strange way. You still need the launcher afaik, but if your internet drops the game shouldn't kick you out. Not sure though never had the net fail on me while I was playing Assassins Creed 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by MOnk
did not know that about steam, o well my stupid ignorance strikes again 0o lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Lycanthrope
hmm you say shitty ones as in plural. I presume that was mistake and it was meant singular being the "not" number 4 and its expansion, as the PB Gothic's are awesome.
I too hate GFWL.
But I would still probably buy the game and get a pirate copy to get away from the DRM's kak.
Yeah, but what I was meaning was stopping DRM from all games for good, not releasing games with DRM and removing it a year or whatever later. IE not making use of DRM everQuote:
Originally Posted by MOnk
Well hopefully if they see sales pick up AFTER they remove the DRM then maybe they will put two and two together. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by simon
See it's that "launcher" bit that gets me. I saw UPlay and that was enough to make me feel like puking.Quote:
Originally Posted by czc
Let me rather put it this way: when the game updates, does Steam update it or does the launcher (Ubisoft servers)?
Nah, you live and you learn. Nothing stupid about that. I used to be really, really anti-Steam but have grown to be really fond of it. If a game is a Steamworks game, I'll buy it retail (so that I have both the box and have it linked to my Steam account). If there's no collector's edition of a game and it's not Steamworks, I'll just grab it off Steam--generally you get to pre-load a week before the game is released and then you get to play at about midnight--1AM on release.Quote:
Originally Posted by simon
Gothic 3's expansion--Forsaken Gods is the other one :)Quote:
hmm you say shitty ones as in plural. I presume that was mistake and it was meant singular being the "not" number 4 and its expansion, as the PB Gothic's are awesome.
*nod* Assuming they're willing to pay attention to those sorts of figures.Quote:
Originally Posted by MOnk
It's why I have such an immense amount of respect for CDProject RED. Not only do they release their games with the bare minimum of DRM and remove that later, they also give significant support in the form of updates, changes, etc to better please the community and improve on their games.
Not a lot of devs or publishers out there that have that kind of commitment to their products.
Hell, look at Bethesda--it's been half a decade and Oblivion still has bugs to high-heaven, bugs that were still present in Fallout 3 and New Vegas. Of course you can blame the engine but surely at some point you FIX the bloody engine, especially before releasing new games on it?
Hope it works don't really like people pirating things when it is easibly purchasableQuote:
Originally Posted by James
Ok just tested it and you need to be online to start AC2 because of the Ubilauncher but once you're in game you are fine. (meh)
Yeugh...Quote:
Originally Posted by MOnk
What about Brotherhood? :o
Yeah, see, they patched the launcher not removed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MOnk
got you to mention it, even though you said you wouldn't haha :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Lycanthrope
Ah ok, coz I was about to call you a heathen for insulting my fave developer lol
Yeah I haven't tried it yet.
Problem is, because of my ignorant mistake I now need to download the client again for Darksiders if I want to play it. My lady bought it for me so I kinda owe it to her, but the download is huge and my hellkom internet won't allow it
Sort of a duh; One that every legit customer since the beginning has been saying all along.Quote:
Originally Posted by James
Well yeah, but this time they're backing it up with some research and hard data.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graal
Can only hope this sinks in somewhere, but a reality check tells me that it wouldn't make a single cent's worth of difference.
Do you have the CD? Cause then you'll only download the updates.Quote:
Originally Posted by simon
Get a 1GB Web Africa account and set your Steam to download from the WA servers. Since it's part of the freezone it doesn't count towards your cap.Quote:
Originally Posted by simon
To be clear. Get SteamWatch, sometimes steam switches servers it downloads from to the nearest location, in my case MWEB - Johannesburg.Quote:
Originally Posted by MOnk
Would love to, but because I might be going to Austria in a few months I can't commit to any internet things.Quote:
Originally Posted by MOnk
If I did stay, I see that Mweb are doing a 1mp/s uncapped for R299 per month which is really good, as far as I know
Pfff :pQuote:
Originally Posted by simon
Understandable...Quote:
Problem is, because of my ignorant mistake I now need to download the client again for Darksiders if I want to play it. My lady bought it for me so I kinda owe it to her, but the download is huge and my hellkom internet won't allow it
I might be able to snailmail it to you at some point on DVD, if you like?
Ah dude, if you could you would be a frikken legend.... ary :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycanthrope
lol... PM your postal address to me. I have some DVDs lying around. I'll send it sometime this week (on or before Friday).Quote:
Originally Posted by simon
Ok. Now the BIG question. How many publishers are going to decide to drop DRM or consider dropping DRM due to this study? Can we see some hands?
Similar case studies have been conducted on DRM since it's inception. Sony even admitted that DRM increases piracy 3 odds years ago. And debates have raged on for years. And still it continues to fall on deaf ears.
Companies need to step up to the cutting block and stop pleading ignorance when it comes to DRM and piracy. We vote with our wallets, but they still fight back harder, pushing up prices and adding more annoying forms of DRM. BUT we need to be careful about this matter. We say that we will support Steam DRM, but to other companies this seems like we are willing to support all forms of DRM (albeit an utter lie). They aren't always about specifics or the people. They only choose to hear what they want to hear. The sound of money hitting the cash registers as unknowing sheep continue to buy their games :-p
Plus, I don't know if anyone has come across this yet. Pity really if it does happen =/.
Plus as has been mentioned. You don't need an always online connection for AC 2 and ACB. Your progress and so forth still gets synced even if you're internet goes wonky. You do however need to be connected to get the launcher going, which remains a pain in the ass. But that usually checks for updates in anycase.
We can only hope that developers ease off DRM and rather spend their time on developing games rather than faffing about this. But then again, if we take DRM away, what will management have left to do other than slouch about and come up with horrible ideas? :p
I have been saying so all along. Why punish legit users?