Crystal Dynamics backs further away from rape fiasco
The scene is merely “physical intimidation”
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Crystal Dynamics backs further away from rape fiasco
The scene is merely “physical intimidation”
I honestly dont get this, not the attempted rape scene in the game, but the reaction to in by the net. Was it the way the guy said it, the whole "make the player want to protect her" thing? I saw the vid & this was no hot coffee incident, looked to me to have been done in good taste and with a very important thing in mind, building the character and her struggle. Why is there this universal outrage? Yet with GTA V on the horizon you dont head people filling the forums with desperate please to not allow players to kill prostitutes to get their money back? Or to give some sort of meaning to the countless acts of senseless violence players will no doubt commit during their time with the title but one ATTEMPTED rape scene in which the protagonist, the player character, over comes her attacked and kills him and the internet erupts with this, this BS. I find it fucking hypocritical, and please understand me full before you respond, in no way am I condoning rape or attempted rape or saying its fine but as a tool to build a narrative or a character it can, if done correctly, work. Recent Example: Girl with the Dragon Tattoo - Listbeth's sexual assault at the hands of her new guardian is deeply disturbing but it does give you insight into her as a character later on & this makes her eventual revenge all the sweeter. Other examples include Rob Roy & Brave Heart.
Give us big bouncy tits in skimpy outfits and we will love you, but dont you dare try and give us a deeper narrative with some serious issues in it because we will crucify you. IMNSHO (In My Not So Humble Opinion) the reaction to this is a slap in the face of the medium and may even be more sexist that the bloody Dead or Alive 5 Pre-order bonuses. I guess score one for the legion.
QFT.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaFenix
Tomb Raider is just the unfortunate scapegoat here. In the recently released Ghost Recon: Future Soldier there is an actual attempted rape scene that the player must foil by killing the rapist: has that got even a single mention anywhere in the media?
I agree with you completely bud , I saw it and I was damn thats a good way to connect with the player . They should have stuck to there guns and played it out now they look like fools .Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaFenix
I haven't really followed this story, so I'm not too clued up on all the details, but it does seem to look like people are making of noise over nothing. It's part of the narrative, so I don't get what is supposed to be inherently sexist about it. Many other videogames and movies have attempted rape scenes. Mafia 2 had an attempted gay prison rape scene, but nobody said a word about that.
If anything, I actually think the Tomb Raider series is going a step in the right direction with this reboot. It went from being a series about two boobs shooting people, dinos and all manner of nasties to a game that seems to be intently focused on a mature narrative experience, and not just sex appeal.
And there in lies the problem, the Legion doesn't want maturity, it wants boobs and violence and brainless "fun" because thinking isn't "cool" or "hip" and neither is anything that might drag them kicking and screaming out of darkness of ignorance trying to shine the light of anything new in their eyes. Lets make Call of Duty 17 rather.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graal
http://i1.kwejk.pl/site_media/obrazk...jpg?1321192442
Well said. Actually calling games nowadays "Video Games" is an insult. Games aren't mainly played by kids under 16yrs of age anymore. The majority of gamers are over 25yrs and as far as i know are called adults.
Therefore games can now be played as adult contented games, played by adults. To me the evolution of games has been from a video game (arcade style) to a playable movie. The AI have become more than mere playable avatars, they grab you and hold on long after you have completed the game. Lara's been such a character for me long time ago. So also Geralt of Rivia etc.
No if the rape scene builds the game character so much that she is more than a avatar anymore then i say go for it. What is disturbing is when a gaming company put you the user in control of raping or interrogating/killing a prisoner like one of the Call of Duty games did (if memory serves)
Im not for that. Tarryns article is a typical polical bs stand on men and women. Im sorry but I allways play with a girl character when the game allows. Women kicks ass just as much as men, especially in games. I use a women character for many many reasons not just to help out a women just because im her manly saviour. I agree i dont see the hype on the net over the rape scene.
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Originally Posted by OmegaFenix
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Originally Posted by Wurnman
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That is all.
Meh usual Internet tantrum. The source of the tantrum is usually irrelevant it's merely an excuse for people to go rant about things. It's almost like a competition about who can get their high horse highest. Complaining about stupid stuff just means that real complaints get lost in the noise.
Yah i read all the articles regarding the Rape scene...(even the source as you pointed out). I was just put off by Taryn's stupid comments. Sorry if i missed her humour or sarcasim in her article. Just tired of Politicians and their ilk trying to tell everyone else on what to do and say, when they all say the same s&*t over and over. Here in Saffaland we know all about this.
I saw the rape scene and would not call it a rape scene at all. It's the same Americans spoiling it for everyone else again.
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Originally Posted by OmegaFenix
He is pointing out that Taryn didn't write the article... So before you call someone's comments stupid you should probably check to see who made them.
Oh good its not just me, for a second there I thought I was misunderstanding the dude. Why I didn't respond with my usual wit...Quote:
Originally Posted by MOnk
The majority of gamers might be over 20, but the mentality of most video games is still very much around 15. Games simply are not mature enough (yet?) to present a scene of attempted rape with anything even remotely near the level of sensitivity it requires.
There's also the very real issue of triggering, and erring on the side of not inadvertently traumatising the one in four women playing the game who have been raped at least once in their lifetimes.
But whatever, I'm sure it's much easier to sit there, as a bunch of guys who have never been victims of sexual assault, and say that showing an attempted rape scene in a video game so players can feel some cheap, contrived, vicarious sense of protectiveness is no big deal.
For me it has nothing to do with protectiveness I just think it would be a good step towards a more mature narrative. Ignoring the issue and hoping it goes away will solve nothing. Use is as a freaking soap box if you have to, put up a screen asking people to support centres for abused women or aid groups and/or provide contact info for said groups. This medium is a powerful tool that can be used to reach alot of people, what if they did include this screen and a girl/woman (even if just 1) who was the victim of such an assault and who was previously too afraid to speak out about it ends up contacting one of these support group or better yet feel empowered to actively fight back or draw some sort of strength from watching a character fight back then it would have been worth while and some good would have come out of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azimuth
I'm sorry but to me this is yet another case of double standards. Books have rape (not even attempted) scenes, movies have rape scenes, TV series have rape scenes, even rape/murder scenes but when a game just hints at it OMG violation! I watched the scene and it honestly was only mildly suggestive, compare that the Sanza's attempted rape scene in Game of Thrones or even the marital rape scene in Homeland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azimuth
You can't just say "Oh it's a video game therefore it can't handle being mature" that is a load of bullocks, since the evidence is right in front of us showing the contrary but because it's in a medium which people deem immature the topic must therefore have been handled immaturely. It's a circle-jerk self fulling prophecy.
Now I'm not saying we should take rape lightly and just throw it around as some kind of character building tool for every women but given that fact that just as you said, this is a topic which affects many women, it seems silly to lock it behind some kind of 'maturity' wall not to be spoken of until your industry reaches the designated level of 'adultness'.
The pinnacle of sexuality presented in mainstream video games so far is probably in Mass Effect - that's two people, fully dressed, moving awkwardly around each other on a bed after making the correct sequence of dialogue choices. Out of the mainstream, it's stuff like RapeLay.
Don't even try to compare sexual themes in video games with sexual themes in movies and films. Maybe one day games will be better equipped to deal with that sort of thing, but now? Definitely not. I mean, games are still using boob physics as a marketing feature. Let's get over that first.
It is never going to change if attempts to transcend this are lambasted every time they pop up but not a peep is made when said boob physics sinks to new depths by offering bathing suits, FUCKING BATHING SUITS, as pre-order incentives. Like I said before, ignoring the issue and hoping it will go away solves nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azimuth
'Wise man say if you stick your head in the sand all you get is sand up your nose.'
And I don't think including a rape scene in a video game is the way to do it. At this point, it would be like teaching a toddler about gender and sex by showing them porn.
An adventure game is not the appropriate place for any sort of discourse about sexual violence against women. The whole context just completely trivialises it.
Ai.....Why is it that i am so many times not understood!
I was refering to your original message, not your "Source" comment post Hence my reference to Taryn's article. I was not even talking about the post you were refering to but rather referring to another posted article.
SO dude, before you (and M0nk) have to wip out your "Wit" as you call it, read what i am saying. Also i dont see how i insulted your post?
http://mygaming.co.za/news/news/3963...pted-rape.html
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Originally Posted by OmegaFenix
I cant agree with you at all. What makes this "rape" scene so horrible for you, where shooting or knifing an AI player is now considered trivial? Age restrictions on games are way to low. I really believe with this new Lara game they want to move with the age of the player who played the original way back. In other words an older audience, hence the building up of the character.
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Originally Posted by Azimuth
If the rest of the Tomb Raider reboot was the same as the old Tomb Raider and the context of the rest of the video didn't already setup a darker more mature tone then I would agree with you but everything we've seen about the new Tomb Raider has suggested it is taking a step back from ye olde Tomb Raider, with the exception of her killing the dude who groped her I didn't see her shooting anything, animals or otherwise, while doing backflips in her hotpants and tank top. So I would say the tale of a young women surviving on a hostile island and growing as a character is the perfect context to broach this topic with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azimuth
Maybe because you post like moron. I mentioned wit, not Monk. We did read what you posted be could not make heads or tail of it since this "original message" wasn't quoted, so how in the name of my 1 holy sock are we suppose to know what in blazes you are on about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurnman
Protip #69: If material not in the article or thread is referred to post either A) a link to referred article/post/thing or B)Quote original material.
;)
The fact that she is a women who sees the situation differently than we, as guys, sees it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurnman
Hey OmegaFenix you are one of those persons who have to comment on everyone's post and rectify them. Allways mr. right. There's one in every forum.
Really dude, read what i am saying before posting. Please dont make me quote and spell out my post so that you can understand it.
Guessing by your swearing you are under the age of 23, if not then you need to mature a bit.
You are referring to ME3 which I've said before took a huge step back when it comes to portraying adult relationships. ME1 and ME2 did this far better, rivalling many a movie. Also Uncharted might have something to say about your calling ME3's 'highschool hookup' the pinnacle of mainstream sexuality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azimuth
That's like saying you must learn how to ride a bike by watching other people ride bikes because you're not allowed to ride one because you don't know how to ride a bike. The only way you mature your way of thinking is by dealing with and thinking about more mature topics. The whole 'kiddie table' attitude many people have towards games is silly when you have popular shows which revolve ENTIRELY around casual sexual relations and then you point to that and say "Look this industry is mature enough to be immature".Quote:
Don't even try to compare sexual themes in video games with sexual themes in movies and films. Maybe one day games will be better equipped to deal with that sort of thing, but now? Definitely not.
So I'll come back to the actual clip again, if just a HINT of sexual assault can results in people throwing theirs toys out the cot then how exactly are these topics suppose to be handled when just their mention elicits scorn and damnation.
To reference your rather crass analogy, it would be like teaching a child about the human reproductive system without mentioning anything do with sex.
EDIT:
ANYWAY, since I haven't played the game yet I'm going to reserve any further comments until such time. For now I will concede that this could potentially be portrayed very badly in the game and thus be more offensive to the player than constructive to the player's character, but I don't agree that mere principle should dictate the topic be avoided completely in games.
So your goal is to construct posts which are not understood? :rolleyes:Quote:
Please dont make me quote and spell out my post so that you can understand it.
If two people say they don't understand what you are saying, your reaction shouldn't be to chirp them. Just make it clear and then everyone can go home happy.
Shooting hundreds of bad guys in a video game is also very, very firmly within the fairy-dusted realms of pretend-pretend. Sexual violence against women? Not so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurnman
I'm a woman living in a country where my chances of being a victim of sexual violence are one in three. Excuse me if I'd prefer a little less grim fucking reality in my entertainment.
You think that age restrictions actually matter? They're there to indemnify the publisher against legal action, not to predict who's going to buy them. If you really believe that only adults are going to play Tomb Raider, you're very much mistaken.Quote:
Age restrictions on games are way to low. I really believe with this new Lara game they want to move with the age of the player who played the original way back. In other words an older audience, hence the building up of the character.
Also, maybe if the franchise hadn't originally made its name with Lara Croft's boobs and bum, people would be more inclined to take this seriously. Sure, it's a reboot, but it's not proved itself yet. Instead, this comes off as a cheap marketing tactic, and for all the wrong reasons.
Oh Boy! Recap time!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurnman
http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/103372925/26858121
No quickly take your own advice and read all the stuff you have posted carefully.Quote:
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Originally Posted by Wurnman
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Originally Posted by Wurnman
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Originally Posted by Wurnman
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Originally Posted by Wurnman
Done? OK!
In your very first post you reference Tarryn, in a thread about an article she didn't write with no mention of then what the fuck you are on about. Then you fail to see this when I & Monk point out to you, quite politely I might add, that we have no idea what you are on about.
Then you mix up what I said with what Monk said.
From there it goes down hill but fast. Culminating in your last post for which I will use this, something I have been saving for a while;
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard.
At only the briefest of points in your rambling, incoherent response where you even close to anything that could be considered on topic.
Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having read your posts. I am considering de-repping you, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Now either get on the topic or get out. :)
I get that, there are topics in which I feel the same but the thing is this is one game and if you don't want to play it then that's fine but it doesn't mean it shouldn't get made or they should change it just for your sensibilities.Quote:
I'm a woman living in a country where my chances of being a victim of sexual violence are one in three. Excuse me if I'd prefer a little less grim fucking reality in my entertainment.
It just seems you've taken this overly negative and sensational stance to a possibly very minor incident in what may be a very good game. I'm not going to judge the game by the 5mins that got shown at E3 but you seem to be judging it on a 2s clip.
Yet more double standards. If you can defend gratuitous sex and violence in movies and series as being aimed at adults and thus properly restricted and then say well you can't have adult games because kids will play them regardless of age restriction.Quote:
You think that age restrictions actually matter? They're there to indemnify the publisher against legal action, not to predict who's going to buy them. If you really believe that only adults are going to play Tomb Raider, you're very much mistaken.
Those are the same arguments used by anti-game activists in the USA and UK and time after time have been smacked down. Just because lazy parents buy adult games for their children doesn't mean adults have to suffer.
Also age restrictions have little to do with legal indemnity.
What Monk said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azimuth
I just hope this negative press doesn't make the final product reject this darker tone and revert back to ye olde Tomb Raider just for the sake of crowd pleasing.Quote:
Originally Posted by MOnk
Actually, apart from this, I think Tomb Raider looks like it's going to be a super game. My point is, I don't think this game is an appropriate platform for any sort of presentation of sexual violence themes. The whole context, as I've previously said, trivialises it. It's an action adventure game. Consider it, for a moment - this is the latest game in a series that doesn't exactly have a good reputation for its presentation of women, and while that may well change for the better this time around, using a subject like sexual violence should not be a part of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by MOnk
As a medium, video gaming is still treading the murky waters of sexual objectification and adolescent-grade imaginings of sexuality. You can't undo that, or hope to change that, by using rape. Also, the way it was originally explained as a method of inculcating some feeling of protectiveness in the player is cheap, manipulative, and problematically sexist.
ITT: Men telling women how they should feel about rape.
I'm done.
Fair enough...
Misunderstanding 1 - Yah i read all the articles regarding the Rape scene...(even the source as you pointed out). I was just put off by Taryn's stupid comments
Explanation 1 - Yah i read all the articles regarding... [means all posted articles here on mygaming.co.za website] / (even the source as you pointed out) [here i acknowledges his reply quote on my post, telling him i read his link the "Source" link he supplied] My comment was on his original post not the "Source" link.
Misunderstanding 2 - Comment by OmegaFenix // Maybe because you post like moron. I mentioned wit, not Monk
Explanation 2 - My comment // SO dude, before you (and M0nk) have to wip out your "Wit" as you call it, read what i am saying. / if you take out the (and M0nk) part, what does the sentence tell you? The "you" i am refering to is OmegaFenix, not so?
Funny i never "chirped" you (M0nk) or Omega before my last few posts, yet you guys laid into me like a couple of school boys.
Suffice to say, i am sorry for not making sense even though it made sense to me. Apologies, I will refrain from commenting further.
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Originally Posted by MOnk
Funnily enough we still dont know what comments you are referring to....Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurnman
I'm sorry you feel that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azimuth
I don't see it as men telling women how to feel about anything I just see it as human beings discussing a sensitive topic.
Wurnman, Omega: take it to PM, please.
Already have Rusty. Its a mission for me so please delete all my irrelevant post (from this thread only please before you get ideas. :))Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan
I see that, but I also see people getting to excited bout it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MOnk
Can't say I'm too kosher with watching rape in game or performing it. Sure is a sensitivity for myself I'd probably skip on the title, makes me wonder of my sig again.
:edit
Makes me want to ask:
To what extend should games reflect reality?
What is the point then of using it as a form of escapism or entertainment?
What is the difference between watching it in game, being ok with it and doing it yourself?
Would it make people go out and rape?
I know the last question(s) is extreme, but you have to wonder with some people. Not everyone is just instantly brought up with good set of values and what is the difference between reality and gamers.
Hey Prophet, concerning to what extend games should reflect reality, i say it depends on who the games are aimed at, adult or under age.
Personally the scene is not rape scene to me at all (i love the fact that she deter her attacker in the scene before it became rape), its done very tastefully. Honestly, we play violent games where we shoot each other or kill each other and it's fine but now this scene comes along and it is a problem. Are we so as gamers, dull to violence that it does not register as wrong? Should shooting someone in a game also not attract the same disdain as rape?
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Originally Posted by Pr⊕phet
I hear you. Made think about this all over again having watched Lockout were clear indication of attempted rape, but flick went on.. and so what.
However Azumith still has a valid points imho.
Interesting to see that head in ground now is applied, maybe this topic will just go away, but do remember you will get sand up your nose.
Would it be valid to put something like manhunt and rapeplay in the same bucket? Could you be playing both because in the end both is extremes of forms violence ?
I'd still rather shoot...
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One can punt age restriction all you want, but torrents are blind to it.
Man, headhunt & Rapeplay are sick games really but people like that. Like the violence and vulgarity of it i suppose. The Japanese are a weird bunch to be honest, they like games like that, Sexy Beach 3/Virtual Girls, all porno type games. But yes i hear what you saying about Headhunt & Rapeplay being in their way violent. So in a way i'm saying is that we as humans can get very use to something very quickly. In a sick way playing games like that we will become immune to them and not notice the morality barrier that is broken. Hence violent shooting games are now considered as normal.
Tomb Raider game is totally different and I stand firm in believing that the scene is not as harsh as people make it out.
As for torrents and age restrictions on games, those things will not stop an underage gamer downloading/playing them, it starts with the parents. But what is easier, buying/downloading your kid a game to shut him up or spending some time with them after a busy day at work?
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Originally Posted by Pr⊕phet