Time to tackle the Borderlands 2 girlfriend mode debacle

[Graal]

So one woman says its an huge world ending issue and we should just accept it, now we have another woman who feels that it maybe isn't such a huge deal but she needs a reality check because......?

Jesus. Christ. OmegaFenix, when are you actually going to start actually thinking? This has been addressed before. NOBODY IS SAYING IT'S A WORLD ENDING ISSUE. Maybe if you actually learnt to read instead of just opening your mouth and jumping on every bandwagon that comes past, you would have noticed this. All you ever do is a load of mouth-flapping without much thought powering it.

The fact that you still don't get what our issue with a simple, casual sexist remark is shows that either you don't want to understand, or you're simply incapable of doing so. We've explained it numerous times, yet you still don't get it. You're still going on about 'huge world ending issue.' I'm pretty tired of trying to engage you in intellectual debates when you're clearly way out of your depth in anything that requires a bit more thought than a post in TK.

Graal, then does that mean that we should stop all magazines, movies, tv shows, and any other media that presents any of your above criticisms? Because you are the one that needs a reality check.

We as a society have gone through this over and over and over again. And really if people would stop shouting so loud about PC comments and things, we would get along better, there would be no need. People need to become more rational. Over reactions and yelling at the top of your lungs won't get a message heard. And seriously why does it always have to come down to an issue like that?

We are all allowed to have our own opinions and reasoning. Mine is simply that rational people would not get so upset nor over react every time.

No, I believe that any rational person would actually be making a fuss about something they feel strongly about. What you see is a casual sexist remark. What I see is a glimpse of a centuries-old mindset that is continuously perpetuated in modern society. Sure, Hemmingway might not have meant any offence with his comment, but that doesn't excuse it. It was still sexist and offence was taken; thus, he got called out on it.

I'm not even a female, yet I hold to feminist ideals. As a homosexual, I also strongly hold to homosexual ideals. Maybe it's the fact that, as a homosexual, I have experience with being part of a group that has been oppressed and marginalized for centuries that leads me to sympathize so strongly with feminists. Regardless, I will call someone out on a casually sexist remark for the same reason I will call someone out on a casual homophobic remark.

More often than not, it's not so much what is said as it is the mindset that powered what is said.

[OmegaFenix]

Jesus. Christ. OmegaFenix, when are you actually going to start actually thinking? This has been addressed before. NOBODY IS SAYING IT'S A WORLD ENDING ISSUE. Maybe if you actually learnt to read instead of just opening your mouth and jumping on every bandwagon that comes past, you would have noticed this. All you ever do is a load of mouth-flapping without much thought powering it.

The fact that you still don't get what our issue with a simple, casual sexist remark is shows that either you don't want to understand, or you're simply incapable of doing so. We've explained it numerous times, yet you still don't get it. You're still going on about 'huge world ending issue.' I'm pretty tired of trying to engage you in intellectual debates when you're clearly way out of your depth in anything that requires a bit more thought than a post in TK.

I could reply to this, much in the way I suspect you hoped I would, all fire and brimstone but you know what? This little, i dont even want to call it a rant, this tired little insult filled tirade of yours has spoken volumes not only about you but in a way about this entire frivolous "debate".

You both keep telling me that nobody is saying its a big issues yet Tarryn has spent two opinion pieces and, together with you, several dozen post on the forum telling us that this casual term, the girlfriend mode comment, is part of the larger underlying sexist culture in 21st century society which is, obviously wrong - so which is it because its cant be both; either it, the girlfriend mode comment, is an issue forming part of the underlying sexist culture of the 21st century or her 2 articles and all the post telling us that it is an issue because it forms part of a societal status que in which sexism is "ok" are rendered moot since and could infact be considered almost entirely pointless since, as you both keep telling me, "its not the issue". Because the way I see it, I am saying the same thing, that it isn't an issue, just in more colourful words.

I'll tell you what I do know, I know that my opinion is based not on a complex developed by being the victim of sexism and/or bigotry by a vocal yet tiny minority of assholes on the internet, it is instead based on the conversation with, and opinions of, my female friends, two of which spoke out in the very thread, with which I took the time to discuss this topic and hear their opinions. I also know that just because I don't grab my torch and pitchfork every time words like sexism, racism or homophobia is hung around the neck of a new, and increasingly ridiculous, he said she said scenario it does not make me a sexist, racist, homophobic, a bigot or, as you increasingly try and infer, thick. There are far too many actual cases of this occurring, in some cases on this forum, to which I can and have lent my voice. What it does show is that unlike some I am able to take a step back and look at the situation unbiasedly and say, 'heck maybe it isn't such a big deal after all and that maybe, just maybe, it has been torn completely out of proportion let us instead speak out with this vigour, fury and intensity, grabbing said torches and pitchforks along the way, when those previously mentioned actual cases of sexism, racism, bigotry or homophobia inevitably rear its ugly head, not only on this tiny little spec of the internet but wherever we may be.'

Now you and indeed Azimuth are free to call me whatever make you feel better, be outraged at my imperiousness or, in your particular case, continue your little tirades on anything and everything I post &/or do on this forum. I honestly dont give a damn nor will I waste any more time attempting a rational or civil debate with you since any such efforts are clearly wasted on the likes of you.

As for you little closing "jab" at the TK, it serves as an insightful portal into the depth of your ignorance concerning it and those who post in it. To which end I would just like to say... you know what your not even worth the insult knowing I am such a huge pain in your ass that you feel the need to attack something you believe is important to me is enough.

[Dan]

There are some valid points and sensible arguments here, so let's not let this spiral down into flaming and toy-throwing.

Keep it tidy and respectful, guys (and girls).

[Graal]

And yet you continue to spectacularly miss the point.

"It can't be both." Seriously, Omega? It is both. Comments such as the girlfriend mode comment forms part of an underlying sexist mindset that permeates the 21st century society in which sexism has become such an integral part of daily life that it is now commonplace and 'normal.' Maybe you should educate yourself a bit and go read up about the whole issue in a few psych and sociology journals. Start with gender socialisation.

The girlfriend comment is NOT the end of the world, as you so continuously keep yelling. You're the only one saying that. It is even explained way back in the original article. The girlfriend comment, however, is indicative of a much bigger problem.

That's all Tarryn's article is about. It's not a rant or tirade. It's only there to try and explain why people take offence at the comment, seeing as many people didn't quite seem to get it the first time around.

So maybe next time, instead of just claiming that you do, actually take a step back and ask yourself, 'hey, maybe I should consider this issue from another view.' Maybe you'll learn something.

As for the last part of your post; I'm sorry that you feel I'm on a tirade against you, because quite honestly, I actually try to avoid you as much as possible on these forums. This whole 'god complex' thing, as you like to call it, it got pretty tiresome months ago. My lash-out in the previous post? It's because it is exhaustingly frustrating trying to have an intellectual argument with you, because it's like talking to a brick wall. You don't take anything in, you just keep repeating the same thing over and over and over again.

Either way, I'm pretty tired of conducting an argument that clearly isn't going anywhere.

[Launchpad]

There are some valid points and sensible arguments here, so let's not let this spiral down into flaming and toy-throwing.

Keep it tidy and respectful, guys (and girls).

First off:
Why does Dan get away with marginalising woman as a parenthetic afterthought?

This guy made an off the cuff comment in the context of our time. A majority of men are in the situation where their girlfriends (as depicted in lots of movies and tv shows) roll their eyes when they spend their time gaming. This guy is speaking to that situation. Someone asked how would we feel if he said it about blacks or gays. If most guys who played games always had a black person or gay person hanging around them complaining about it then the comment would have made sense. I don't think that's the case for most of us.

TLDR - He didn't say woman need an easy mode - he said many guys who play games have girlfriends who don't and here's an easy way to try get them involved.

[MOnk]

sexism has become such an integral part of daily life

That would suggest sexism hasn't been an issue until recently. Which I think it the sort of forest through the trees sentiment Omega and others have been trying to convey. You can't honestly tell me that things have gotten worse for women or that women don't have more freedom and opportunities now than they have ever had.

Every day both men and women fight for equal rights, opportunities and fair treatment for everyone but just because you have a different opinion about how to go about things doesn't mean you are on the other side of the issue.

Don't make enemies out of friends or turn the sympathetic into the apathetic.

[Dan]

First off:
Why does Dan get away with marginalising woman as a parenthetic afterthought?

Because I'm a moderator who's moderating the thread, not participating in the discussion.

[TheAvenged87]

After much consideration, I have decided that I should share my humble opinion.

I am a marketing student (which, in no way, makes me an expert on the matter) and one of the fields that I delve into is market research. If someone provides a service, they market it to their target market, as that is where they have a sure-fire way of making a success of their campaign. In the gaming realm, this target market is unfortunately predominantly male. Even though this demographic is rapidly changing, this is the norm. The only way that this target market will change, is if the excluded party makes the supplier notice that the demographic is changing, be it with their wallets or their presence (going to conventions, stores, online, etc).

Now, the "Girlfriend Mode" that has caused such an uproar on the internet over the past few days actually doesn't really affect me, perhaps caused by some in-grown ignorance that I have inherited with my upbringing. This motivated me to test the waters on someone who might experience the situation differently: my girlfriend. I explained to her that the new Borderlands game will feature a "girlfriend mode", so that someone that does not have much experience in FPS games can join in and play along. Her response was simply: "Cool".

This does in no way mean that I do not see sexism in this realm. I remember that Tarryn was attacked in column comments quite heavily by some scumbags, before the comment authentication was improved. I also know that some female gamers pose as males, so that they don't get hassled by the male majority. Those are unfortunate circumstances and I do hope that those conditions improve for these individuals.

I think that this matter has been blown completely out of proportion and that a few egos have clashed, even though the same message was conveyed by both sides, just with bigger words and complete misunderstandings of their messages. I have seen a female gamer fiercely protest the remark, while two others (that I am familiar with) have played it down. From what I have read in this thread, I can only assume that the opinion amongst female gamers are not unanimous.

All that I am getting at (I suppose), is that there is inherent sexism in every day life, but I do see light at the end of the tunnel.