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Thread: Bible makes strong comeback

  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fivel View Post
    The problem is that religion/belief is a very personal thing.
    As is your sexual orientation and your political stance. I don't see why this should mean nobody is allowed to make religious jokes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fivel View Post
    Not at all, don't try and spin something to prove your point. Just because we live in an anonymous Internet world shouldn't mean there are no boundaries.
    And just because you find something offensive doesn't mean you get to decide where those boundaries are set.

    Through this whole saga, I still don't understand why jokes about religion that are not intended to be malicious are supposedly taboo.
    Last edited by Graal; 07-06-2013 at 02:45 PM.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    As a joke, it's potentially funny.

    It's not a correct representation of atheism though. If you've met a professed atheist who takes this stance, then they themselves don't understand the meaning of atheism.

    EDIT: I'm talking more specifically about the "nothing" parts.
    Yeah I know, I just found this goof on facebook , quite funny to me. But still it's right to an extend, SOMETHING must have created something. Something can't just come out of nothing .That's where different religions have their own views.

  3. #63
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    Ok well, I hsve been going through an incredibly tough time, Still not ok and some days are really bad as far as the pain is concerned.
    If not for my faith and the bible and of course my girlfriend and my family I don't think I could have coped. I find comfort in reading the bible and relaxes me to know that Someone is looking out for me and is there for me. Whether that makes sense to you or not doesn't matter.

    Now take something that you find comfort in and something that means a lot to you not just on a religious level but on a very personal level and see how you feel when someone bashes it and makes jokes about it. You have no idea how it feels to go through some of the stuff I go through on a daily basis and you think its ok to bash something that means a lot to me.

    I am not talking about homosexuality or racism here, the topic at hand has nothing to do with it, so why bother mentioning it.

    Anyway I am done with the off topic section of the forum, although I love this forum and a lot of the members here I won't be dragged into a argument because of my beliefs.
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  4. #64
    MyGaming Alumnus James's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyt View Post
    Yeah I know, I just found this goof on facebook , quite funny to me. But still it's right to an extend, SOMETHING must have created something. Something can't just come out of nothing .That's where different religions have their own views.
    This suggestion presupposes the concept of "nothing", and we have no evidence of a state of nothing.

    This misinterpretation of big bang theory is that suddenly from nothing the universe exploded into existence. In scientific terms, the big bang theory describes a rapid expansion event in the universe. This is the best model that current physicists have for the early development of the universe (it is based on observed and testable evidence). Science doesn't claim to know the state of the exact universe before the big bang event. They certainly don't claim that nothing suddenly exploded into everything.

    For a theist to assert that something must have created the universe as we know it, and that something is a god being of some kind, the logic can be extended to ask who created that god being? Did the god appear from nothing, or was it created by an even more powerful and mysterious god being? To stop at the particular god a theist wants to be in charge is special pleading, suggesting that the god is exempt from the rules of logic and reasoning. At that point the argument has broken down, and it brings us no closer to understanding the origins of the universe.

  5. #65

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    This is the best model that current physicists have for the early development of the universe (it is based on observed and testable evidence)
    It's a hypothesis , there is just as much proof of the big bang as there is of God ( the bible is proof enough for me, but speaking from an atheistic POV). Close to nothing.


    For a theist to assert that something must have created the universe as we know it, and that something is a god being of some kind, the logic can be extended to ask who created that god being?Did the god appear from nothing, or was it created by an even more powerful and mysterious god being?
    A God, in context of monotheistic religion is a supreme being, aka omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscience. There is only one. A god cannot create another god with the same attributes. Then who is God, if there are multiple gods being the same all the while?

    God is often conceived as the supreme being and principal object of faith.
    To stop at the particular god a theist wants to be in charge is special pleading, suggesting that the god is exempt from the rules of logic and reasoning. At that point the argument has broken down, and it brings us no closer to understanding the origins of the universe.
    Right, that's where faith comes in. As I said, in monotheistic religions it clearly states that there is only one God.

    suggesting that the god is exempt from the rules of logic and reasoning
    Well, if it's a god, he is a creator. Why should he be subject to the laws of his own creation if he created the laws?

    By the way I was talking about atheism, who deny that there is no deity at all. If you deny that there is no deity who created the universe, who created the universe then?
    Last edited by Lyt; 07-06-2013 at 05:05 PM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyt View Post
    A God, in context of monotheistic religion is a supreme being, aka omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscience. There is only one. A god cannot create another god with the same attributes. Then who is God, if there are multiple gods being the same all the while?
    One of the things about God is that He isn't bound by time as we know it. When one can wrap their minds around a thing of no time then maybe it is easier to understand a time when there was nothing but God.
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  7. #67
    MyGaming Alumnus James's Avatar
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    I'm not going to address a semantics argument about the difference between hypothesis and theory. There is also a large body of scientific evidence in support of the big bang theory. These things can be researched online if you are interested.

    Also, there isn't a point in addressing assertions made on the basis of faith, such as the omnipotent deity assertion. The willingness to accept something when there is a lack of evidence or to assert that such things cannot be proven with evidence because they are somehow beyond our realm of understanding and must therefore be taken as a matter of faith is juxtaposed to the scientific approach. There are of course many logical flaws to that faith-based approach as well, but logic gets thrown out the window on matters of faith. When someone presents scientific data and logical reasoning to a theist that goes against their definition of a god and the god's role in the universe, the theist can simply turn around and say it doesn't matter because their belief in a god is a special case that trounces all that stuff, and they will continue to believe regardless.

    To address the atheism definition: in simple terms, it is the rejection of the claim that a deity exists because there is a lack of evidence to prove that one exists.

    I can't answer the question of "who created the universe then?" because it is circular, asked from the presupposition that some powerful entity created the universe. I reject that any omnipotent entity created the universe based on our lack of scientific evidence for it. This does not mean that science claims to know the origin of the universe (a mind-blowing concept to contemplate).

    Atheists are comfortable with saying that at this stage, science does not yield the answer. Science is comfortable with this too, and continues to explore. Some theists seem happy to accept that they know the answer already, and no further investigation is needed.

    edit: added missing "not"; clarified sentence on logical flaws.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graal View Post
    And just because you find something offensive doesn't mean you get to decide where those boundaries are set.

    Through this whole saga, I still don't understand why jokes about religion that are not intended to be malicious are supposedly taboo.
    I guess I give a damn about what I post and what affect it has on others, I sense you could care less. Good luck with that approach.

  9. #69

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    @James, great post, I think you have pulled together a very complex discussion in a few paragraphs.

    I'm busy reading Gunning for God by John C Lennon, where he dismantles what Dawkins says etc. This to and fro between theists (in its broadest sense) and atheists is great to read and sometimes very confusing but remains an important discussion to have.

  10. #70

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    I would like to go on with this argument if you don't mind.

    I'm not going to address a semantics argument about the difference between hypothesis and theory. There is also a large body of scientific evidence in support of the big bang theory. These things can be researched online if you are interested.
    "A theory is a well-substantiated, unifying explanation for a set of verified, proven hypotheses". The big bang is far from well-substantiated or proven, and yes I have looked at a LOT of 'evidence' that claims the big bang actually happened ( my stepfather is a theologian, pastor and studied philosophy, we had tons of discussions about this subject ). It would be wrong to call it anything more than a hypothesis, since it's only a suggested explanation.

    Also, there isn't a point in addressing assertions made on the basis of faith, such as the omnipotent deity assertion. The willingness to accept something when there is a lack of evidence or to assert that such things cannot be proven with evidence, because they are somehow beyond our realm of understanding, and must therefore be taken as a matter of faith is juxtaposed to the scientific approach.
    Of course there is a lack of evidence that such a divine deity exists, just like there is a lack of evidence that the earth is 13 billion years old. Logically it doesn't make sense that something came out of nothing , that something has to be created by something or somebody else. That is where atheism falls short, and has no base whatsoever. Look I'm not claiming that the earth was made by the Christian God ( even though I believe it, I don't have scientific evidence to back it up ) , but from the study of the universe, both by atheist and christian scientists, everything comes to the conclusion that the universe is finely tuned to an incomprehensible precision to support life. Aka designed. Don't tell me that the universe randomly started expanding and the energy was converted into atomic particles, and then formed elements. Something like this happening by random, don't think so.

    There are of course many logical flaws to that approach as well, but logic gets thrown out the window on matters of faith.
    So does it when it comes to atheism. As I said, there is no base.

    When someone presents scientific data and logical reasoning to a theist that goes against their definition of a god and the god's role in the universe, the theist can simply turn around and say it doesn't matter because their belief in a god is a special case that trounces all that stuff, and they will continue to believe regardless.
    Science cannot prove that a god doesn't exist, neither can it prove that he does exist. So far science has only presented the alternatives to religion ( such as the big bang and the theory of evolution [ I do believe in evolution to a certain extent, people as well as animals evolve every day ] ) . Science has never discredited the existence of a omnipotent deity, since it's impossible.
    God is formless. Out of formless came form. Form is temporal. Trying to prove formlessness through science which deals with form in time is impossible.
    This explains it nicely.

    To address the atheism definition: in simple terms, it is the rejection of the claim that a deity exists because there is a lack of evidence to prove that one exists.

    I can't answer the question of "who created the universe then?" because it is circular, asked from the presupposition that some powerful entity created the universe. I reject that any omnipotent entity created the universe based on our lack of scientific evidence for it. This does not mean that science claims to know the origin of the universe (a mind-blowing concept to contemplate).
    The universe is everything, without the universe there is nothing. So for the universe to be created there must have been something before it, a creator. It goes against all logic to deny that nothing has created the universe.

    I know christianity sounds laughable to an atheist, like who's this little magical god you speak of that created everything, where is the proof that he exists etc etc . I can see that from your point of view. Now look at mine :

    According to the big bang 'theory' the universe had zero volume and infinite density before the big bang : zero volume = nothing. Now they claim that energy was converted into subatoms, aka the protons , neutrons and electrons. How the fk can energy come out of nothing?

    Also search " T-rex collagen " on google. They found proteins in a t-rex femur. Now you tell me how long animal tissue lasts. Certainly not millions of years.
    Last edited by Lyt; 07-06-2013 at 07:13 PM.

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