Kevin
The Dude
Nvidia is dominating the GPU market
Nvidia’s graphics cards are bringing in the money in a big way
Nvidia’s graphics cards are bringing in the money in a big way
Nvidia is dominating the GPU arena
- Thread starter Kevin
- Start date
The Joker
Thread Killer MKII
Yeah, they're also starting to attract a lot of negative attention.
In fact the rumors are starting to spread that they are gimping performance on the 7xx series to make the 9xx look better than it actually is, there is also some proof of this.
Then there was the whole 3.5GB/4GB bullshit story they spun, claiming they didn't realize it until it was brought to their attention after the cards had been on sale for a month or more, also the way they responded left a bitter taste in my mouth.
Now their latest handy work is locking down all their high end mobile gpu's in laptops, claiming its for warranty and life span reasons (Utter bullshit). All the new laptops have excellent cooling.
In fact the rumors are starting to spread that they are gimping performance on the 7xx series to make the 9xx look better than it actually is, there is also some proof of this.
Then there was the whole 3.5GB/4GB bullshit story they spun, claiming they didn't realize it until it was brought to their attention after the cards had been on sale for a month or more, also the way they responded left a bitter taste in my mouth.
Now their latest handy work is locking down all their high end mobile gpu's in laptops, claiming its for warranty and life span reasons (Utter bullshit). All the new laptops have excellent cooling.
StaggerLee
New member
Do you have links for this, I'd like to see.
Though I agree that they should have been a lot more upfront with the issue, I don't think they ever claimed that they weren't aware of it. And they provided a very thorough and very satisfying explanation of why it is the way it is. See http://www.anandtech.com/show/8935/...cting-the-specs-exploring-memory-allocation/2
Those are bad reasons to give for locking down GPUs. Would you also link the articles saying this for me please? Thanks
I have to say though, people are generally critical of the big boy on the playground. Nvidia has made some mistakes, but they (at least superficially) seem to be attempting to rectify those mistakes but there is no denying that they are very forward-thinking in their approach to the industry instead of just trying to maintain the status quo that AMD likes to sit in. They consistently innovate and progress too. I think there is a lot to be said for that, despite their problems.
AlienTaker
Whale Masseur
I still love my AMD cards and i won't easily switch specially now with the new backing amd is going to get i want to see what monsters are going to be bred there now
The Joker
Thread Killer MKII
[MENTION=9032]StaggerLee[/MENTION]
http://www.overclock.net/t/1529108/are-nvidia-gimping-kepler-since-maxwell
http://www.overclock.net/t/1540793/swe-evolve-2k-benchmarks-show-radeons-roar-on-cryengine-graphics
You just have to look at the latest benchmarks to notice something is off.
Apparently there won't be any more performance drivers for the 7xx cards as well, very weird since there is def more performance to be squeezed out of them.
Technically the GTX780Ti is a far superior card, and when the 980 launched they were right on par, now all of a sudden the 980 is beating the 780ti by miles, and a R9 280X is beating a 780 (A much faster card).
There are a ton of threads all over oc.net.
Well they did when they 1st responded to it, ther pretty much said well if you wanted the full 4GB you should have bought a GTX980 and only after Guru 3D and someone else (Can't remember which site) got on their case about it did they offer to investigate and bla bla bla.
Very bad reasons, as a lot of high end laptops can deal with the heat, especially with efficient cards like the 9xx series.
They aren't trying to rectify it, 1 of their engineers came out and said they would fix the mem issue with a driver update (No driver could ever fix that) then a week later coming out and saying it can't be fixed with a driver update.
They've gotten so arrogant.
http://www.overclock.net/t/1529108/are-nvidia-gimping-kepler-since-maxwell
http://www.overclock.net/t/1540793/swe-evolve-2k-benchmarks-show-radeons-roar-on-cryengine-graphics
You just have to look at the latest benchmarks to notice something is off.
Apparently there won't be any more performance drivers for the 7xx cards as well, very weird since there is def more performance to be squeezed out of them.
Technically the GTX780Ti is a far superior card, and when the 980 launched they were right on par, now all of a sudden the 980 is beating the 780ti by miles, and a R9 280X is beating a 780 (A much faster card).
There are a ton of threads all over oc.net.
Well they did when they 1st responded to it, ther pretty much said well if you wanted the full 4GB you should have bought a GTX980 and only after Guru 3D and someone else (Can't remember which site) got on their case about it did they offer to investigate and bla bla bla.
Very bad reasons, as a lot of high end laptops can deal with the heat, especially with efficient cards like the 9xx series.
They aren't trying to rectify it, 1 of their engineers came out and said they would fix the mem issue with a driver update (No driver could ever fix that) then a week later coming out and saying it can't be fixed with a driver update.
They've gotten so arrogant.
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StaggerLee
New member
I went back to check for some original benchmarks, and it seems that the 980 has beaten the 780ti since the beginning:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1515264/gtx-980-vs-gtx-780-ti-benchmarked-1440p-performance
which is also how I remember it. Admittedly the margins are not as large the original benchmarks, but the newer benchmarks that you linked were performed on three brand new games. Nvidia would have undoubtedly optimised the drivers for those games running on the newer cards. I don't think it's very straight-forward to assume that they are gimping Maxwell cards. Additionally, I am not sure it's fair to expect them to continue optimising drivers for an architecture that will be phased out in favour of a new one. Sure you'd expect them to keep support up for many years, but still to squeeze every last drop of performance out? I'm not so sure.
Ja, I agreed that they could have initiated the response better, definitely, but when they eventually issued the response, I don't think that it was at all arrogant or underhanded in the way it was handled. They were forthcoming with their information which provided enough technical detail to explain the problem. This is not to mention the fact that the issue was a bit of a storm in a tea-cup.
Though a driver will never fix the issue, I doubt that they will ever fail to mention that such a configuration is used again. I believe that they will continue to use the configuration and I don't think that it's necessarily a bad thing either, as it provides excellent performance for an excellent price. This is part of the innovation that I am referring to.
If they had not provided a satisfactory explanation on the 970 issue, I would have agreed. They apologised and explained it and I think it's fair to give them another chance with the matter. If they continue to pull underhanded nonsense then I think it's fair to demonise them, but I'm not sure it's reached an EA/Ubisoft point yet.
The Joker
Thread Killer MKII
When I have more time on my hands I'll dig up some more threads, where guys have older scores on their 780ti's and with the new GTX980 and you'll notice the difference, on top of that like I mentioned the 780ti is a far better card than a GTX980 when it comes to the actual hardware in each card.
I've also done some testing when a friend of mine asked me about it.
As someone that owned a 780Ti since launch and a 980 since launch I have also noticed how the 980 has magically gotten faster and the 780ti has somehow slowed down or is just sitting at the same spot, this was especially noticeable in Far Cry 4.
I really don't get how you can say its not fair to expect them to continue to optimize the 7xx range. So that basically means Nvidia is saying fuck you all, even though we can get more performance out of our cards we won't be bothered to do so. Now all of a sudden you have a R9 280X starting to beat a 780 and a 290 starting to perform like a 780ti because Nvidia can't be bothered.
On top of that Nvidia's drivers are slipping badly, AMD these days are crushing them when it comes to releasing fully functioning drivers.
In the future I have no doubt that they'll be a bit more open, but their reaction and lack of giving a shit when it happened didn't paint a pretty picture.
As far as the 970 goes, I've tested it and the cards do run incredibly well with excellent performance @ 1080P and 1440P, its once you start running UHD in Sli that the mem config starts rearing its ugly head. As soon as the mem hits 3.5gb games start stuttering and become incredibly annoying to play, a problem that is not present on the GTX980 and that alone tells me this mem config is a stupid idea.
Edit: So nice to have a proper debate on the forum for once
I've also done some testing when a friend of mine asked me about it.
As someone that owned a 780Ti since launch and a 980 since launch I have also noticed how the 980 has magically gotten faster and the 780ti has somehow slowed down or is just sitting at the same spot, this was especially noticeable in Far Cry 4.
I really don't get how you can say its not fair to expect them to continue to optimize the 7xx range. So that basically means Nvidia is saying fuck you all, even though we can get more performance out of our cards we won't be bothered to do so. Now all of a sudden you have a R9 280X starting to beat a 780 and a 290 starting to perform like a 780ti because Nvidia can't be bothered.
On top of that Nvidia's drivers are slipping badly, AMD these days are crushing them when it comes to releasing fully functioning drivers.
In the future I have no doubt that they'll be a bit more open, but their reaction and lack of giving a shit when it happened didn't paint a pretty picture.
As far as the 970 goes, I've tested it and the cards do run incredibly well with excellent performance @ 1080P and 1440P, its once you start running UHD in Sli that the mem config starts rearing its ugly head. As soon as the mem hits 3.5gb games start stuttering and become incredibly annoying to play, a problem that is not present on the GTX980 and that alone tells me this mem config is a stupid idea.
Edit: So nice to have a proper debate on the forum for once
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Blazzok
New member
~ snip ~
Edit: So nice to have a proper debate on the forum for once
I was thinking the same thing earlier, it's so nice to read a reasonable debate on the forum.
This sucks though, I like Nvidia's cards but their business ethics is starting to piss me off. Why you push me away Nvidia? Why you do this?
FarligOpptreden
New member
I must say, my Red card is still serving me well (and I know I gloat about it often). It's the first time I've ever bought a desktop Red card and I not disappointed.
DuckKnuckle
New member
FarligOpptreden
New member
You have an AMD card? Farlig I am so so sorry.
RIP
Yup, a blistering fast one at that. I've always been kinda rebellious in everything I've done, so out of principle I won't get an nVidia GPU. Besides, my card kicks ass for the amount of money I paid!
DuckKnuckle
New member
Haha yeah that's all that matters dude. As long as you're happy with your purchase.
AMD does give good price/performance.
FarligOpptreden
New member
StaggerLee
New member
I don't think it's easy to determine which GPU actually has better hardware as they use two different architectures purported to be completely revolutionary at the time they were released. It does seem that the 780ti is faster in the areas that matter (memory bandwidth and processing power[source, source]), but it's not as black and white that one is higher so it's automatically better. Software also has to utilise this efficiently, which I guess is largely a driver issue. So if what you say about Nvidia gimping the older cards in favour of the new is true, then this could be one strong argument for that, but again it's not so simple to compare.
Again I don't think it's fair to use anecdotal evidence as justification, confirmation bias is a very potent persuader. The only real way to settle the matter is to present hard numbers. One way would be to compare the performance of the 780ti when it performed at its peak, with older drivers. If Nvidia truly are gimping the card, then it should perform better than the 980 on a game like Far Cry 4, even with outdated drivers. Alternatively, one could compare the performance of the 780ti on Far Cry 3 or 2013's Ass Creed with its best-performing drivers and the new drivers. If they are being gimped, it should perform worse with the new drivers.
And of course the 980 is getting magically faster, they are supposed to be improving the drivers aren't they
It's only fair to expect them to optimise a specific product for a certain length of time. The 780ti was launched in November 2013. They offer driver support for their cards for nearly 5 years at a time, which is a long time, expecting optimisations for the same period is unrealistic. On the other hand the R9 280/290 etc are AMDs latest cards, they are obviously going to keep receiving optimisations until AMD releases a new series, at which point their optimisations will likely stop, just like Nvidia's.
This is unfortunately true, but only really for the mid-lower end cards. Not that it's excusable to let your drivers slip on such cards, I'm just saying I wouldn't expect it to affect a 780ti.
Also true unfortunately (except the part about them being more open).
And here is the crux.
The very reason that Nvidia was able to provide a performance card at such a good price range as the 970 was because of the memory configuration. It simply comes down to the fact that they were able to use their manufacturing output quantities more efficiently. If they were not able to individually disable segments of the L2 cache, then they might not have been able to utilise the GPUs with failed L2 cache units and the overhead cost from the manufacturing process would have gone up. This would likely have increased the price of both the 970 and 980 -based cards. Relative to what the card could have been if it was released without the memory configuration as it is now, the overall value of the card is improved.
The memory configuration is the price that you pay for having a great card at a very reasonable price. It's the compromise, the trade-off. The card performs exceptionally well in most user configurations but will start to suffer a performance drop in extreme use-cases. The old cliche applies: you get what you pay for.
Edit: So nice to have a proper debate on the forum for once
Lol. In that spirit. The above is not meant to absolve Nvidia of any wrong-doing (or to demean AMD), I simply believe that it's not quite the time ready the pitchforks. Yet.
hideinlight
New member
Both the GTX970 amd GTX960 can get away with a 450w power supply.
http://www.wootware.co.za/review/product/list/id/17091/category/48/
And you can get a really high quality gold rated PSU for R600
So Galaxa GTX 960 + gold rated power supply for R600 works out around R3600
Now if you get a similar performing card like the R9 280x, you end up paying more for the GPU, more for the power supply (and probably get one of lesser quality) and more for the electricity bill.
At this point Nvidia in the lead.
Although you cannot count out the R9 270 and R9 270x for a slightly lower price point, because at that level Nvidia lineup like the GTX750/GTX750 ti kinda sucks.
http://www.wootware.co.za/review/product/list/id/17091/category/48/
And you can get a really high quality gold rated PSU for R600
So Galaxa GTX 960 + gold rated power supply for R600 works out around R3600
Now if you get a similar performing card like the R9 280x, you end up paying more for the GPU, more for the power supply (and probably get one of lesser quality) and more for the electricity bill.
At this point Nvidia in the lead.
Although you cannot count out the R9 270 and R9 270x for a slightly lower price point, because at that level Nvidia lineup like the GTX750/GTX750 ti kinda sucks.