Piracy - is it a dirty word?

I actually think this article from Cracked sums piracy up perfectly:
http://www.cracked.com/funny-4003-the-pirate-bay/

Just The Facts
1. No matter how you cut it, The Pirate Bay is ultimately just a collection of thieves.
2. However, its chief rival is the RIAA: An even larger and more vicious collection of thieves.
3. Which makes TPB the lesser of two evils - kind of like Robin Hood.
4. Except instead of money, they're giving pornography and pirated episodes of The Celebrity Apprentice to the poor.

That said, I don't like piracy. I think it's correct to pay for games. I also have downloaded a crap load of albums and gone on to buy them later. I can't exactly justify it, but as soon as I can find The King Is Dead in a record store here I'm buying it, until then I'm listening for free.

As far as games are concerned, I think piracy is a problem and I don't like how people can get the full benefits of great games without paying for it, but I also think game makers need to back down and stop caring. Seriously. They're not accomplishing anything by making their games unplayable.

So yeah, I think game makers, recording artists, movie studios, etc., are all entitled to their deserved earnings. I also think they are, for the most part, greedy assholes who work off of copyright laws which make absolutely NO sense. In addition to that, instead of just shoving the label of "illegal" under piracy, why is it so hard to find the actual, documented copyright laws? I'm serious, I've searched google for hours and only managed to piece together small paragraphs of real laws.
 
I love it when you talk dirty
twisted.png


I'm currently saving up for the Star Trek Voyager, Deep Space Nine and Next Generation series. However, at R3,300 a box it's going to take a while :o But it'll definitely be rewarding <3

Which is why i buy my series in the uk when i go. R500 for season 1 to 6 of house. BARGAIN. Yes i downloaded the entire animated batman series but the moment i see it on dvd or blu-ray its mine.
 
The /sarcasm parenthesis raised an eyebrow.



lol... Well I wasn't sure what you were trying to get across, whether you were trying to say every pirate in the world is, by their very nature, a leech on developers and publishers, regardless of the fact that people like myself consider themselves pirates yet buy in excess of 20+ games a year (depending on the year and I'm including old games I find and add to my collection :p)

I consider it stale because few are ever ready to listen and most just want to preach (either for or against). I suppose I like preaching the grey as well, which is why I'm still here, ranting away :p

It just feels like it's becoming a tired one-sided discussion though, because few (read:no-one) want to actually discuss or accept the plausibility of the benefits AND the cons. It's like when people get into discussing piracy you either have to be FOR it and pretend the cons don't exist or AGAINST It and pretend there are no good elements to it.



I agree. Troika was one of my favourite developers. I only ever bought two of their games as a kid (Temple of Elemental Evil and Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines) and wish I could've done more. It was only a few years after that I even discovered Arcanum and that Fallout was their baby before they left Interplay.

I know how you feel and the feeling is mutual. I still defend piracy on those grounds though, because without it, I would never have grown to love games as much as I do today. Who knows, in a different life I may have found some other hobby :p

Yup, I agree with your points.

There's just one thing that bothers me. It's true that there is an obvious grey area (like with all things in life, when it comes to ethics :rolleyes:) but to me there is quite a clear line between outright piracy, feeling that you don't need to support developers at all and supporting them in some way or another by buying some of the titles that deserve all the praise it gets.

Ok fine, even if you copy a few games from friends, somewhere along the line you will buy a game or 5 to show your support and because of your love for the industry, but saying "I will pirate alles and not buy one game" is not cool? Right?
 
That said, I don't like piracy. I think it's correct to pay for games. I also have downloaded a crap load of albums and gone on to buy them later. I can't exactly justify it, but as soon as I can find The King Is Dead in a record store here I'm buying it, until then I'm listening for free.
http://www.take2.co.za/music-king-is-dead-8946631.html This? :D

As far as games are concerned, I think piracy is a problem and I don't like how people can get the full benefits of great games without paying for it, but I also think game makers need to back down and stop caring. Seriously. They're not accomplishing anything by making their games unplayable.
Better benefits: No DRM.

In addition to that, instead of just shoving the label of "illegal" under piracy, why is it so hard to find the actual, documented copyright laws? I'm serious, I've searched google for hours and only managed to piece together small paragraphs of real laws.

South African Copyright Act:
11B. Copyright in a computer program vests the exclusive right to do or authorize the doing of any of the
following acts in the Republic:
(a) Reproducing the computer program in any manner or form;
(b) publishing the computer program if it was hitherto unpublished;
(c) performing the computer program in public;
(d) broadcasting the computer program;
(e) causing the computer program to be transmitted in a diffusion service, unless such service transmits a
lawful broadcast, including the computer program, and is operated by the original broadcaster;
(f) making an adaptation of the computer program;
(g) doing, in relation to an adaptation of the computer program, any of the acts specified in relation to the
computer program in paragraphs (a) to (e) inclusive;
(h) letting, or offering or exposing for hire by way of trade, directly or indirectly, a copy of the computer
program.
 
deja vu.

quickly sum it up
1) i was an XXX and now found the light.
2) raven : phew phew, qq + rant rant fuck off.
3) throwing in of a third spanner.
4) reading all this again...again...again...

...sticky and combine into one almighty piracy thread ? only thing more stale is this is the evolution VS creationism talks. takes seat, waits for next "new" round of piracy threads to arrive ;}
 
Which is why i buy my series in the uk when i go. R500 for season 1 to 6 of house. BARGAIN. Yes i downloaded the entire animated batman series but the moment i see it on dvd or blu-ray its mine.

Jeez... R500 isn't bad at all >.<'

Yup, I agree with your points.

There's just one thing that bothers me. It's true that there is an obvious grey area (like with all things in life, when it comes to ethics :rolleyes:) but to me there is quite a clear line between outright piracy, feeling that you don't need to support developers at all and supporting them in some way or another by buying some of the titles that deserve all the praise it gets.

Ok fine, even if you copy a few games from friends, somewhere along the line you will buy a game or 5 to show your support and because of your love for the industry, but saying "I will pirate alles and not buy one game" is not cool? Right?

The thing is, I was having an argument with someone ages ago (don't ask me who, the Who I've Argued With Before bit of my memory is pretty weak at the best of times) who used this chick he knew as an example. He said that this chick walked up to some band-member friend of his and said that she loves his music but she'd never buy an album because "I don't buy music."

Methinks the crux of the matter is exactly that: there are people who will never buy music/games/series/books because it's just not important to them. It's sort of like... "something nice" to them but not something that is a passion of theirs.

Actually, a few days ago I came across an article about brand loyalty and personalities. I can't remember where I found it and Googling only turned this up. But, the basis of it was that there are people who are "brand loyal" and that people who tend to be loyal to certain brands tend to also be loyal to their partners.

While I don't remember details and don't have the patience to write a thesis on those findings right now, the idea was basically that you get people who are loyal and support certain products and people who basically just don't give a rat's ass.

I think the essence in gaming/piracy is much the same. I'm under the impression that you just get people who don't care about something like gaming because it's just a convenience or a luxury not a passion. If gaming had to one day disappear of the face of the planet they'd just shrug and find something else to amuse themselves with. Know what I mean?

It's part of why I firmly believe that if someone was never going to buy a game, they'd simply just never buy a game. Same with music, books, movies you name it. I think you just get people who don't care.
 
But this still brings the question to me, it doesn't fit, why pirate a game you claim will be rubbish but play it through completely. It doesn't fit.
 
Jeez... R500 isn't bad at all >.<'



The thing is, I was having an argument with someone ages ago (don't ask me who, the Who I've Argued With Before bit of my memory is pretty weak at the best of times) who used this chick he knew as an example. He said that this chick walked up to some band-member friend of his and said that she loves his music but she'd never buy an album because "I don't buy music."

Methinks the crux of the matter is exactly that: there are people who will never buy music/games/series/books because it's just not important to them. It's sort of like... "something nice" to them but not something that is a passion of theirs.

Actually, a few days ago I came across an article about brand loyalty and personalities. I can't remember where I found it and Googling only turned this up. But, the basis of it was that there are people who are "brand loyal" and that people who tend to be loyal to certain brands tend to also be loyal to their partners.

While I don't remember details and don't have the patience to write a thesis on those findings right now, the idea was basically that you get people who are loyal and support certain products and people who basically just don't give a rat's ass.

I think the essence in gaming/piracy is much the same. I'm under the impression that you just get people who don't care about something like gaming because it's just a convenience or a luxury not a passion. If gaming had to one day disappear of the face of the planet they'd just shrug and find something else to amuse themselves with. Know what I mean?

It's part of why I firmly believe that if someone was never going to buy a game, they'd simply just never buy a game. Same with music, books, movies you name it. I think you just get people who don't care.

I hear you, man. Makes a lot of sense what you say. Especially about some people that just don't care and will find something else to do if gaming would cease to exist. Kinda a sad thought. :/

But this still brings the question to me, it doesn't fit, why pirate a game you claim will be rubbish but play it through completely. It doesn't fit.

You could slap me with a Salmon if I knew.
 
deja vu.

quickly sum it up
1) i was an XXX and now found the light.
2) raven : phew phew, qq + rant rant fuck off.
3) throwing in of a third spanner.
4) reading all this again...again...again...

...sticky and combine into one almighty piracy thread ? only thing more stale is this is the evolution VS creationism talks. takes seat, waits for next "new" round of piracy threads to arrive ;}

Bolded bit. Truer words never said :p

Lycanthrope that was the most amazing post I have ever seen, ever. I'm absolutely speechless.

Erm... It wasn't intended to offend.

I thought you'd appreciate the Take2 link if that's the album you were looking for. Also, the link to the copyright legislation was intended to be helpful, as was quoted bit about "Computer Programs."

As for the DRM bit it's the truth. Pirates don't have to struggle with a bunch of DRM issues, especially if they don't have access to the internet or some other dilemma (SecuRom, Tages x86 drivers refusing to allow a game to be installed on an x64 system)

Oh well, in future I'll just ignore your posts, shall I? :/
 
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But this still brings the question to me, it doesn't fit, why pirate a game you claim will be rubbish but play it through completely. It doesn't fit.

See, that agitates me too. There's a video that Azimuth-sama linked to a few weeks back which raises that exact point. If you played a game long enough to enjoy it, there was obviously something about it you liked enough to play it, so BUY IT.
 
*nod* I actually agree with you :D

It's just one of those things that is like nails on chalkboard to me. I love discussing games.

My stance on piracy isn't really so much SUPPORT for piracy as it is DEFENCE of piracy. I'm a gamer because as a kid friends would copy games for each other; there are so many games I would never have heard of or even played (and today, own) it not for piracy.

The black-and-white stance annoys me :)

But it is black and white, just because something is in a digital format we suddenly find all reasons to make it a grey area.
 
But it is black and white, just because something is in a digital format we suddenly find all reasons to make it a grey area.

The law is black and white. Ethically it remains grey.

Law has been wrong countless times before, ethically, it remains debatable.
 
But it is black and white, just because something is in a digital format we suddenly find all reasons to make it a grey area.

Fivel, this below is not directed to you and it's in general :)

doesn't feel digital to me when i had to (from top of my head)

1) scope the project
2) application design
3) interviews before hand with affected parties
4) initial mock up
5) interviews on the initial mock up with affected parties
6) prelim programming
7) again interviews to re-check i'm right track with affected parties
8) showing of the beta code
9) getting the beta to all most final
10) again showing of the all most final code before release
11) final release tests
12) final release
13) showing off the final release
14) rolling out final release

...it's fucking hard work, and game dev even more so. there is so much shit you have to do to get an application out. same with flicks, same with music, same with books, etc etc etc.

imho, catch a fucking wake-up and see that the end result was because of actual work and not just that cd/dvd/file on your hdd...
 
Fivel, this below is not directed to you and it's in general :)

doesn't feel digital to me when i had to (from top of my head)

1) scope the project
2) application design
3) interviews before hand with affected parties
4) initial mock up
5) interviews on the initial mock up with affected parties
6) prelim programming
7) again interviews to re-check i'm right track with affected parties
8) showing of the beta code
9) getting the beta to all most final
10) again showing of the all most final code before release
11) final release tests
12) final release
13) showing off the final release
14) rolling out final release

...it's fucking hard work, and game dev even more so. there is so much shit you have to do to get an application out. same with flicks, same with music, same with books, etc etc etc.

imho, catch a fucking wake-up and see that the end result was because of actual work and not just that cd/dvd/file on your hdd...

Bad work remains bad. An author could spend five years on their 'masterpiece' but a trip to the library or a quick sift through a couple of pages in your local book store would still be all anyone would need to decide against it and result in a failure.

Truth of the matter is that effort doesn't always pay off if it's not what people want. When your livelihood, your means of generating income, relies on how well it is marketed and to which audience, it's a risky business. It could be destroyed by a single review, a demo or word-of-mouth.

Let piracy be your saviour if it is, in fact, brilliant (what the Gothic series was to me) or it could be your disaster. In the end, the decision remains that of the public, not in how hard you worked.
 
Fair enough Prophet and well put! Perhaps I wasn't clear in my post, but personally I am 100% against piracy and I don't pirate.
 
Bad work remains bad. An author could spend five years on their 'masterpiece' but a trip to the library or a quick sift through a couple of pages in your local book store would still be all anyone would need to decide against it and result in a failure.

Truth of the matter is that effort doesn't always pay off if it's not what people want. When your livelihood, your means of generating income, relies on how well it is marketed and to which audience, it's a risky business. It could be destroyed by a single review, a demo or word-of-mouth.

Let piracy be your saviour if it is, in fact, brilliant (what the Gothic series was to me) or it could be your disaster. In the end, the decision remains that of the public, not in how hard you worked.

Ly, I don't get what you are trying to say. Bad quality should not be condoned but to have to worry about someone pirating your work as well isn't fair.
 
Ly, I don't get what you are trying to say. Bad quality should not be condoned but to have to worry about someone pirating your work as well isn't fair.

Again, piracy isn't black and white. As I said, it could save your work by reaching a market it otherwise wouldn't have, it could also destroy your work if it is, as you say, of uncondonably (yes, I just invented a word) bad quality.

Surely evidence speaks for itself: good games sell despite piracy whereas bad games with bad sales fail regardless and good games with bad marketing still sell in spite of (read: possibly because of) piracy.

Let's look at Gothic 4, a game that had something like 5,000,000 Euro in resources budged to it. Last I heard JoWood was filing for bankruptcy. Related? Who knows. Risen, made by little-known developer, Piranha Bytes, on the other hand, went on to be a bit of a success, even announcing Risen 2 in 2010.

A game developed with 5,000,000 Euro allocated to it failed magnificently whereas a small developer, working on what I can only assume were significantly fewer resources made a masterpiece.

Bad games do not sell (well). Good games, even when pirated, are guaranteed to sell well.

I'm sorry, you can't turn piracy into a senseless savage beast when it is anything and everything but. Piracy isn't the savage beast you imagine it to be because it's not black and white.

Let's try analyse this in parts.

What is Piracy?
Piracy is tenacious, it exists in so many forms because anything considered "copyright infringement" is piracy. Copyright infringement can be something as simple as lending a game to a friend without the permission of the publisher, or it can be something as ethically antagonising as making counterfeit copies of games and selling them.

Does piracy harm sales?
Simply put, it depends on the type of piracy:
Counterfeiting software with the intent to sell it does harm legitimate sales. Many intentional buyers of counterfeit software feel they have rightly paid for it. Many unintentional buyers feel conned and outraged. Sales of counterfeit software have been linked to anything from supporting the drug trade all the way through to terrorism. Think about this next time you buy counterfeit goods. This is money developers and publishers never see and many who have paid for counterfeit goods will never buy the legitimate thing for the above-mentioned reason (they feel they have already paid for it) so yes, it harms sales.

Common piracy in the form of downloading off something like PirateBay or a friend giving you a copy of his latest game (either because he's currently playing it as well or doesn't want his disc out of his sight). Perhaps you'll pass the copy on to someone, perhaps someone else will download it off PirateBay out of curiosity. Who knows? In the end it is neither a lost sale nor does it support the illegitimate trade of intellectual property. Some people who pirate will buy after doing so, others will not so it doesn't harm sales, nor does it necessarily amplify sales.

Lending games to your friends is very similar to common piracy, except it's on a significantly smaller scale and no copies of the original media is made. It still copyright infringement because you don't have the permission of the publisher (the licence holder) to lend the game to anyone. Because it still remains up to the person who borrowed the game whether or not they will buy it, it doesn't harm sales, nor does it necessarily amplify sales.

Buying second hand games is actually rather interesting. Many people wait for second-hand copies (depending on DRM, of course) because they are cheaper and usually still in good quality. As far as the buyer of second-hand goods is concerned, it's exactly the same. The key difference between buying second-hand and pirating is that you have bought from a kind of "proxy-buyer" if you will, someone who held onto and played the game before you came along and took it off his hands. Assuming the publisher ships and sells 50,000 legitimate copies, 20,000 of which are resold, the publisher will still only see the income of 50,000, not the 70,000 they could've seen. Buying second-hand also remains copyright infringement as you are not entitled to resell the game without the publisher's permission. Does buying second-hand hurt sales? Yes. Shocking revelation? Allow me to explain: Let's assume there were 5,000,000 illegal downloads. According to some article I read somewhere the pirate-to-buyer ratio is 4:1, that means 1,250,000 copies arguably stand to be bought for every 3,750,000 pirated (let's just assume that these figures are related to one game instead of many ;)). Resale implies that there are a fixed, limited number of copies which can be sold and resold, the publisher/developer only ever seeing income from the initial purchase. Common piracy, even taking into account the 3,750,000 downloads that will likely never buy, ups the number of initial purchases to 1,250,000. So yes, resale harms sales.

Bearing in mind that I'm doing a helluvalot of thumb-sucking here but the fact of the matter remains: if your product is bad, it will not sell, if your product is good, it will sell. Piracy could help or hinder you.

The smallest and what would be considered the most heavily-hit games (Minecraft, World of Goo) are some of the best-selling games out there because there is a market that loves them.

Also, I feel that Minecraft, especially, thrived because of piracy. Many people want to know what it's about and see what the attraction and the big fuss is. If I remember correctly, the developer even went around to Minecraft torrents, chatted up the locals, answered questions and urged many to buy.

So, really... The black-and-white argument either 100% FOR or 100% AGAINST piracy isn't working with me. It's a logical fallacy steeped in wilful ignorance and mired in self-righteous indignation.

Anything I've said so far could be wrong and perhaps my stance is, but from where I'm standing, my stance holds its own and I look forward to engagements which could help me strengthen it or rework it or alter it. Unfortunately discussions revolve heavily around some emotional guilt-trip while conveniently ignoring how piracy also assists the industry.

I agree, heavily, with Shamrock's #2:
2. However, its chief rival is the RIAA: An even larger and more vicious collection of thieves.
The biggest "thieves" are the RIAA, DRM companies and the like who exploit this perceived vulnerability that is "piracy." It's a phobia, an irrational fear, a paranoia of this big savage beast that's actually more of a friendly giant than anything else. It all just depends on how you view it and how you use it.
 
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I neither have the time or the inclination to really debate all your carefully made points. If you cut to the chase the majority (my opinion) of pirates have not even considered 1% of your points and never will.

They are to happy to get their grubby paws on something for nothing - it really is that simple.

To Shamrocks point of the publishers/RIA being the real thieves, I recall an old saying - two wrongs don't make a right.
 
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