Fable’s Creators Reckon Pre-Owned Sales are Worse Than Piracy

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Luke Plunkett —With experience on both the PC and Xbox 360, Fable studio Lionhead is well aware of the pitfalls of both platforms. And feels one pitfall is deeper than the other.

"Piracy these days on PC is probably less problematic than second-hand sales on the Xbox," Lionhead's Mike West told Eurogamer. "I've been working on PC games for many years and piracy is always a problem. There are a lot of honest people out there as well, and if they like your game they'll buy it."

Saying that any sales Lionhead makes on the PC version of the 2010 role-playing game are a "bonus", West adds "For us it's probably a no-lose even with piracy as it is. But, as I say, second-hand sales cost us more in the long-run than piracy these days."

That's an easy one to calculate. A game pirated does not automatically equate to a game stolen, because there's no guarantee the culprit would ever have bought it in the first place. But a pre-owned sale? That's a definite purchase, where money changed hands and a physical copy of a game went home with somebody. And not a cent of that makes its way back to a developer or publisher.
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http://kotaku.com/5802953/fables-creators-reckon-pre+owned-sales-are-worse-than-piracy

what I have been saying all along...
Good to see some sense coming from the devs, I buy games to support the devs who make good games, not for the greedy middle man publishers and shops
 
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But i see a similar logic with the whole sony hacking story. If i bought it, i own it. Thus i can do whatever i want with it. whether i resell it or even give it to someone else. Unless its stipulated or something on the box that its not to be handed over to anyone. (some boxes do say that)
 
matosha said:
But i see a similar logic with the whole sony hacking story. If i bought it, i own it. Thus i can do whatever i want with it. whether i resell it or even give it to someone else. Unless its stipulated or something on the box that its not to be handed over to anyone. (some boxes do say that)
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no body is saying its wrong (yet) but there are quite a few people who think they are doing their bit by buying a game second hand, when in fact its more damaging then piracy
 
Damn, I'm worse than a pirate! I'm a ninja! :D

Half my 360 games are secondhand. My PC games are all original though so I guess the guy has a point.
 
So what happens if I buy a game from a friend or the btgames pre played bin and I purchase some DLC for the game? That money goes somewhere to the developers, I think? That means that by selling games second hand, you are opening up a potential market for the developers that was not available during the initial launch when many people couldn't afford the game.

I have every right to sell anything that i have legally purchased. The same goes for a house or a car. It's called a re-sale market and not the black market that these people are making it out to be. Honestly, if this is the business logic that these publishers are using to run their businesses, it's no wonder they're closing up shopso often.

I always thought it was piracy that was damaging them so badly that they had to close. It turns out they're just clueless when it comes to running a business.
 
About all my x360 games are from sales. I can hardly afford not too at the "normal" pricing. I do however agree that second hand is taking from the developers, BUT maybe the person who bought the game second hand will be buying the next one from that developer because he/she now knows the games are fun. If the game was not sold second hand and that person could not have gotten the game, then no future buying from them.

I would say a lot less word of mouth and market penetration if you cut out second hand. There's also the thing of that is helping with the bottom line of the retailers, don't think they would be too happy if it's cut. Less retailers, less sales.
 
I bought my car from the GM developers.

I was going to sell my car 2nd hand to someone else who is quite poor and could never afford buying my car new. I was going to put that money down as a deposit on a new car from GM but now I can't afford it since this article taught me that it's wrong.

I guess I'm stuck playing with my old car forever.
 
Neo said:
I have every right to sell anything that i have legally purchased. The same goes for a house or a car. It's called a re-sale market and not the black market that these people are making it out to be. Honestly, if this is the business logic that these publishers are using to run their businesses, it's no wonder they're closing up shopso often.
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I don't think the article is trying to put the blame on the consumer. The guy is actually saying it's a flaw with Console games that they are more expensive and easy to re-sell , whereas PC games are much cheaper [digitally] and you rarely re-sell PC Games .

If the Xbox Live Marketplace was anything like STEAM , everyone would be buying their console games on it and the 2nd hand market would not exist. So we know where the problem is.....and it's with Microsoft and Sony.
 
Many people purchase KNOWING that they can sell it... they prolly wouldn't buy it if they didn't know they could recover some of their money.
 
DarthSWNT said:
Many people purchase KNOWING that they can sell it... they prolly wouldn't buy it if they didn't know they could recover some of their money.
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A very good point here I think. I would like to see how many people would go buy new games at R500-R700 a shot knowing they won't be able to resell it again to subsidise their next purchase.

Someone will probably point out that there is some or other vague reference hidden in the fine print of some or other agreement that you agree not to resell any game you buy. And that may be so, but I suspect that is more to do with devs not wishing to lose money than it is about a legal aspect.

I couldn't give a flying toss what anyone here says or doesn't say, but anything I bought legally, I have the right to resell. It is my property and therefore mine to with as I please. Console devs are shooting themselves in the foot. I've said it before and I'll say it again, but console games are overpriced. Way overpriced. Why can PC games be developed and sold for half the price of console titles? Obviously people will still resell and other will still pirate, but I reckon more sales will be made overall and whilst margins will be smaller, the overall GP will be higher.
 
Voicy said:
I bought my car from the GM developers.

I was going to sell my car 2nd hand to someone else who is quite poor and could never afford buying my car new. I was going to put that money down as a deposit on a new car from GM but now I can't afford it since this article taught me that it's wrong.

I guess I'm stuck playing with my old car forever.
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Poor voicy still playing with cars :D :p
 
Jus you okes get defensive... nobody says you doing anything wrong, but is just a legal version of ripping off the developer
 
Not getting defensive, the devs must just stop making absurd comments like that. Basically equating honest law-abiding citizens to pirates. Of course people are going to be riled up.
 
@ OP and Lionshead dev's...

Ever think the games are just a tad overpriced on launch? If you wait a year or 2 you can pick up the "Platinum" copy of the game for less than half the price you would have bought it for a brand new one when it came out. And that's not 2nd hand pre-played.

The solution is simple, and something I'd like to point out that Blizzard gets right all the time, marketing + hype of a good quality game/cult following + cheap enough buy-in at launch = profit coming out your ears. Their content is also delivered online, so you buy and download the game without the need for CD's and manuals etc (something you can also opt to have at a higher price of course). XBox has the capability, why not exploit that? Launch new content regularly at a cheap price (R50-R100) and you'll make the game replay/pay for itself even more.

They created the pre-played 2nd hand market because of the overpriced "new" game pricing... make it cheaper you'll sell more copies to those who couldn't afford to buy it new in the first place AND kill the 2nd hand market since you'll effectively give everyone the chance to afford it as it comes out. (I know I sound a bit redundant)

Don't you agree? It's a change in attitude/mentality/marketing/business plan for them but it's still do-able to get the maximum amount of profit out of something you painstakingly created for several years.
 
The console pre-owned market would entirely vanish if PSN and XBL could up the stakes a little (like Steam) and do weekly specials.
And by specials, I mean up to 75% off AAA titles.
Yes, even if the title is already 6 months old...

I prefer getting my games cheap, because 99% of the time, it wasn't worth $50 to begin with.
 
If we are getting defensive it's because we have a reason to be. First they equate piracy to stealing. Sorry but legal definitions don't agree. If I steal something I deprive someone of something they have and not something they don't that they can't even quantify. If you want your adverts to work then tell the truth and stop lying.

Now some are saying if I sell something I legally own I'm a pirate and so also a thief. Good way to alienate your customers Crytek and others. Same thing is happening with books and movies but nobody's taking a sh!t over it. I said it in the other thread and I'll say it again here, lower your prices from the start and sell more. If there can be a 90% drop in price over a year or two it was way overpriced from the start.

Developers have a problem that they have no idea how to create a sustained revenue stream for their products. The shareware people pioneered such a concept. I can still buy Doom 17 years later. Drop your prices people and allow me to buy your product 10 or 20 years later and you'll make more money. Then give me more incentive to play it. Don't just make 5 or 7 levels for what can be a good creation and make it easy for the community to create and share content.
 
Marketing is an expensive exercise and when someone buys a pre played game and enjoys it; they increase their chance of buying a new version. Think of it a sample. Companies spend millions on samples and getting their brand out there; so just as the developer in post 1 says they are losing money, they also are gaining exposure by games being circulated instead of collecting dust and having no use.

Games are expensive and a resale is one way of making it accessible to all (Even those who can't afford it)
 
I understand what Luke Plunkett is trying to say in the article, but I think one solution is to drop the prices of Console games, more people will be inclined to by originals and not second hand. I'm sure the bigger studio's can negotiate better licensing fee's with the console makers.
You don't see second hand / Pre-Played PC Games on shelves, nuff said.
 
fayainz said:
I understand what Luke Plunkett is trying to say in the article, but I think one solution is to drop the prices of Console games, more people will be inclined to by originals and not second hand. I'm sure the bigger studio's can negotiate better licensing fee's with the console makers.
You don't see second hand / Pre-Played PC Games on shelves, nuff said.
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I fully agree with that , bring down the prices of new games so we can all afford them.
As for 2nd hand games equating to piracy , thats a tad harsh,
lets see , I buy a game , the developer gets the money , I then sell it for cheaper to a friend and use that money to buy another game , meaning the money I spent from buying 1 game subsadized a second game , the developers wont complain as 2 games sold.
piracy , the developer doesnt see a sent.

Like with most things , this is a 2 sided coin , and in a country like South Africa I just dont see the 2nd hand market dieng out any time soon. I buy 2nd hand copies as I know I will probably only play a game for a few months and then it goes to Davey Jones' locker until I feel nostalgic in a few years from now.
(Also im really broke) poor people get bored too..
 
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