Piracy, Not Consoles, Killed the PC Exclusive

[Graal]

All I have to say about this stagnation argument is summed up perfectly here: Opinion: We've Got it Better Than Ever

Basically all that article does is show us how graphics have gotten better. Yai. That totally proves that the industry isn't stagnating. Where's the parts about gameplay? Or storylines? Or narratives? Or

Back then, developers actually improved and innovated with every game they released. Now all we get is the same game with slightly better graphics and a few minor gameplay changes. And we're supposed to sit back and accept it because gamers 20 years back would cum in their pants upon seeing modern graphics?

 

[czc]

I've heard this argument before as well. Its Circular you are never going to get to a point, you expect the next big thing but even developers who listen to gamers ever growing list demands for a "good game" are being shafted by piracy.

I keep telling myself I wont come back to this argument and yet I keep coming back.

All I have to say about this stagnation argument is summed up perfectly here: Opinion: We've Got it Better Than Ever

If you guys are going to discuss stagnation in the games industry, please branch out to a new thread. It deserves it's own thread.

 

[OmegaFenix]

Basically all that article does is show us how graphics have gotten better. Yai. That totally proves that the industry isn't stagnating. Where's the parts about gameplay? Or storylines? Or narratives? Or

Back then, developers actually improved and innovated with every game they released. Now all we get is the same game with slightly better graphics and a few minor gameplay changes. And we're supposed to sit back and accept it because gamers 20 years back would cum in their pants upon seeing modern graphics?

Oh Spare me. You really want to tell me gameplay isn't better than it was 10, 15, 20 years go? That we dont have deeper storylines more complex narrative? Sure not every game that is released re-invents the wheel but there is plenty of improvement and innovation abound. Thing is we get 50 odd, maybe even 100, games a year where as "back in the day" we got maybe 5 in a brand new medium, of course there is going to be more innovation in an industry with a catalogued of maybe a 100 games compared to the hundreds of thousands we have now. But gamers so are busy moaning, whining, bitching or boycotting instead of just enjoying the great games we get to enjoy. Most of the moaners, whiners and bitchers are even playing it free of charge

 

[Graal]

Yet 4.2 Million copies was pirated, thats 5 times the amount sold. I've given you an example from one of the few Studios who maintain that DRM is bad & keeps the player at the heart of it telling you that Piracy hurts them, hurts the industry and you want to tell me the glass is half full? No the glass if half empty and piracy STOLE the other half.

The other half? So that 4.2 million people would have bought the game had there not been an option for piracy? 800 thousand copies is a fucking lot of money, considering the game sold for between $60 and $40 for most of the year and only dropped slightly during the steam christmas sale.

Yes, they could have made more money if not for piracy, but they already made so much money that they're able to afford a release on consoles as well as continue developing and releasing free content for their PC market. They're not about to go bankrupt due to piracy.

Not DRM, there wasn't any,[/quote]

Actually, there was. It prevented me from playing the game for a few hours on release day because their shitty activation servers were experiencing issues.

SO WHAT THE FUCK motivated those who STOLE it?

Greed. As I've been saying right from the start, something you would have picked up on had you actually been concentrating on my argument right from the start. And it's going to be the driving factor for all the games that are going to get pirated in 2012, because there's nothing anyone can do to prevent piracy, and as long as people can pirate, they will.

Developers need to realize that and start doing something useful about it. Which is what I've been arguing right from the start.

I am now seriously done with this argument, I had given it the benefit of the doubt, but am left, no more than ever, resenting my fellow gamers.

Miss my point and run out. Okay.

 

[OmegaFenix]

If you guys are going to discuss stagnation in the games industry, please branch out to a new thread. It deserves it's own thread.

I am not, I've said all I have to say on the "stagnation" issue in countless other threads that follow suit after the piracy debate deflates.

 

[OmegaFenix]

The other half? So that 4.2 million people would have bought the game had there not been an option for piracy? 800 thousand copies is a fucking lot of money, considering the game sold for between $60 and $40 for most of the year and only dropped slightly during the steam christmas sale.

Yes, they could have made more money if not for piracy, but they already made so much money that they're able to afford a release on consoles as well as continue developing and releasing free content for their PC market. They're not about to go bankrupt due to piracy.

Not DRM, there wasn't any, Actually, there was. It prevented me from playing the game for a few hours on release day because their shitty activation servers were experiencing issues.



Greed. As I've been saying right from the start, something you would have picked up on had you actually been concentrating on my argument right from the start. And it's going to be the driving factor for all the games that are going to get pirated in 2012, because there's nothing anyone can do to prevent piracy, and as long as people can pirate, they will.

Developers need to realize that and start doing something useful about it. Which is what I've been arguing right from the start.



Miss my point and run out. Okay.

Your making a circular argument.

 

[Kharrak]

If he is, he's not the only one :/

Basically, everyone's staying in their corner, not willing to change sides. Yay.

 

[Graal]

Oh Spare me. You really want to tell me gameplay isn't better than it was 10, 15, 20 years go? That we dont have deeper storylines more complex narrative? Sure not every game that is released re-invents the wheel but there is plenty of improvement and innovation abound. Thing is we get 50 odd, maybe even 100, games a year where as "back in the day" we got maybe 5 in a brand new medium, of course there is going to be more innovation in an industry with a catalogued of maybe a 100 games compared to the hundreds of thousands we have now. But gamers so are busy moaning, whining, bitching or boycotting instead of just enjoying the great games we get to enjoy. Most of the moaners, whiners and bitchers are even playing it free of charge

So you think games are a significant step up from where it was a few years ago?

What did Skyrim innovate?
What did MW3 innovate?
What did Dead Space 2 innovate?
What did Crysis 2 innovate?
What did Dungeon Siege 3 innovate?
What did Dragon Age 2 innovate?
What did any of the Assassin's Creed sequels innovate?

We're playing the same games we played over the last few years, with new skins and numbers stuck behind the names.

Shouldn't it tell you something that the people complaining the loudest aren't paying for the stuff?

Why do you think we've started seeing such a sudden emergence of a fully-fledged indie industry over the last two years? Because they innovate. They do things people haven't seen before. They take chances. 80% of the indie games available aren't some form of shooter.

Anyway, I thought you were leaving because you got disgusted because everyone doesn't share your opinion?

 

[czc]

So you think games are a significant step up from where it was a few years ago?

What did Skyrim innovate?
What did MW3 innovate?
What did Dead Space 2 innovate?
What did Crysis 2 innovate?
What did Dungeon Siege 3 innovate?
What did Dragon Age 2 innovate?
What did any of the Assassin's Creed sequels innovate?

We're playing the same games we played over the last few years, with new skins and numbers stuck behind the names.

Shouldn't it tell you something that the people complaining the loudest aren't paying for the stuff?

Why do you think we've started seeing such a sudden emergence of a fully-fledged indie industry over the last two years? Because they innovate. They do things people haven't seen before. They take chances. 80% of the indie games available aren't some form of shooter.

Anyway, I thought you were leaving because you got disgusted because everyone doesn't share your opinion?

To be fair, that isn't the entire industry. Just some of the big names.

 

[Necuno]

graal. those are ip milkage.

However dead space 2 did have a separate lighting team to mention just one thing they tried differently. As far as that IP goes, imho it's one of the best horror FSP ever. Going to buy it on the xbox as well for myself.

:edit
TBH there isn't much more room left for that ZOMG in gaming. I mean quake already brought polygon and nowadays games looks and sounds so good, what more can be done ?

 

[Graal]

Anyways, I'm out, because I've made my point countless times now.

-Piracy does not affect current sales, because piracy is going to continue regardless of what anyone does or says. That means that there is zero chance of developers seeing money from pirates, so it is not lost money, because there was never any chance of making money from these individuals. If nobody could pirate, a handful of them might have bought it. However, they can pirate, so they will pirate. Nobody can stop them from pirating.

-The current methods of combating piracy does nothing but fuel piracy further, therefore developers and publishers should drop these methods entirely and spend more time trying to convert pirates.

-The gaming industry treats its customers like shit and is stagnating. They get away with this because individual publishers/developers don't see each other as threats or competition. Aside from EA and Activision, who else competed for each other's customers in recent years?

 

[Necuno]

Anyways, I'm out, because I've made my point countless times now.

-Piracy does not affect current sales, because piracy is going to continue regardless of what anyone does or says. That means that there is zero chance of developers seeing money from pirates, so it is not lost money, because there was never any chance of making money from these individuals. If nobody could pirate, a handful of them might have bought it. However, they can pirate, so they will pirate. Nobody can stop them from pirating.

-The current methods of combating piracy does nothing but fuel piracy further, therefore developers and publishers should drop these methods entirely and spend more time trying to convert pirates.

-The gaming industry treats its customers like shit and is stagnating. They get away with this because individual publishers/developers don't see each other as threats or competition. Aside from EA and Activision, who else competed for each other's customers in recent years?

Must be the reason my indie library keeps on growing. Puppy Games are moving up my list fast as really cool indie developers.

 

[czc]

graal. those are ip milkage.

However dead space 2 did have a separate lighting team to mention just one thing they tried differently. As far as that IP goes, imho it's one of the best horror FSP ever. Going to buy it on the xbox as well for myself.

:edit
TBH there isn't much more room left for that ZOMG in gaming. I mean quake already brought polygon and nowadays games looks and sounds so good, what more can be done ?

More can still be done on the AI I would think.

 

[Necuno]

More can still be done on the AI I would think.

Aaah yes. AI. The lost orphan of graphics, physics and sound. I think last "excuse" was that a proper AI engine would take too much cpu. I wonder how much of it is true thinking of what pcs can do today...

 

[Graal]

To be fair, that isn't the entire industry. Just some of the big names.

Indeed, but it's the smaller studios and indie studios who are making the real good games and continuously doing new things.

graal. those are ip milkage.

However dead space 2 did have a separate lighting team to mention just one thing they tried differently. As far as that IP goes, imho it's one of the best horror FSP ever. Going to buy it on the xbox as well for myself.

:edit
TBH there isn't much more room left for that ZOMG in gaming. I mean quake already brought polygon and nowadays games looks and sounds so good, what more can be done ?

It depends. People are only limited by their imagination and creativity.

Just look at Mirror's Edge. An excellent, innovative game from 2009. EA dropped the franchise like a hot potato after the first game.

IP milkage is basically a lack of innovation. Publishers are too scared to give new IPs a chance, so they simply continue milking old ones.

More can still be done on the AI I would think.

That's one of my biggest gripes. Skyrim is touted by many as GotY 2012, but just look at how utterly retarded its AI is. Get stuck on geometry. Bad pathfinding. Get shot in the face with an arrow, can't find the attacker so 2 minutes later 'I must have imagined it'. While the arrow is protruding from his/her face.

 

[Necuno]

It depends. People are only limited by their imagination and creativity.

Just look at Mirror's Edge. An excellent, innovative game from 2009. EA dropped the franchise like a hot potato after the first game.

IP milkage is basically a lack of innovation. Publishers are too scared to give new IPs a chance, so they simply continue milking old ones.

The only answer then is like I said playing indie. Houses like EA goes with what the market pay them for like MWx or CODx.

 

[Graal]

Must be the reason my indie library keeps on growing. Puppy Games are moving up my list fast as really cool indie developers.

Well, there isn't really much competition in the indie industry either, but the indie industry is still relatively small compared to the AAA industry. It's grown a lot, but it's still small. Indie games are also priced competitively. I bought 4 indie games over the weekend, and it cost me less than a AAA title. I'm probably going to get a lot more fun and time out of it too.

One thing I find highly ironic is how the AAA companies bitch and whine about piracy day in and day out, but the indie companies (people who rely on every, single sale) take no issue with it, and even condone it at times (Project Zomboid developers condoned it, despite their game not making a lot of money).

Also, have you guys checked out Desura yet? It's like Steam, just mostly indie games. Some pretty cool gems on there.

 

[MOnk]

Just look at Mirror's Edge. An excellent, innovative game from 2009. EA dropped the franchise like a hot potato after the first game.

IP milkage is basically a lack of innovation. Publishers are too scared to give new IPs a chance, so they simply continue milking old ones.

Against my better judgement I shall reply to this.

It's not publishers that are scared of new IP it's GAMERS. Games like Mirror's Edge, Odyssey to the West, Beyond Good and Evil and many many more are good games with new IP that didn't do well. Yet the next iteration of COD sell more than the last.

Why should publishers risk new IP when time after time gamers show they don't want new IP they just want to buy the same old crap. Year after year FIFA racks up 10mil + sales while something fresh like Rayman: Origins struggles. People complain about map packs and things like COD:Elite, yet they pay and they pay in droves.

Don't blame publishers, blame gamers.

 

[Strifehart]

Don't blame publishers, blame gamers.

This.

Every single asshole out there buying each iteration of Call Of Duty every year is to blame for the "stagnation" in the industry.

Fact of the matter is, there's a lot more casuals playing games these days, which is why the likes of Call Of Duty is doing so exceptionally well. Developers/Publishers are simply providing the supply to the consumers' demand.

 

[Graal]

But Mirror's Edge still ended up selling more than 2 million copies across all three platforms in its lifetime. Granted, it sold piss-poor on PC (unless it somehow managed to sell a few hundred thousand on Steam, which I doubt). But still, 2 million can't really be considered a financial failure. It's not as much as some of their other games make, but it's still pretty decent. If they were to release five niche games a year that made them smaller amounts of profit, they'd still end up making a lot of money.

Publishers are just scared of putting niche games out there. Every game has to appeal to the masses. You also have to make a distinction between casual gamers and gamers who do it as a hobby. How many of that 10 million people who buy FIFA/Rugby/NBA actually play games as a hobby? Unfortunately, publishers are too scared that those more casual gamers won't buy their games, so they don't take risks and won't do anything that doesn't at least guarantee 5 million sales.

It's a rather slippery slope, because publishers do have to make money in the end, but it's bringing AAA games down. The indie industry, however, is capitalizing on the fact that there are almost no games that cater to niche markets nowadays, and they're not doing half bad, I'd say.

Fact of the matter is, there's a lot more casuals playing games these days, which is why the likes of Call Of Duty is doing so exceptionally well. Developers/Publishers are simply providing the supply to the consumers' demand.

Basically this. But you can't blame gamers for it entirely. I mean, look at Dragon Age: Origins. It certainly wasn't a mainstream title and most casual gamers I know wouldn't touch it with a stick because according to them it's 'too complicated'. Even so, to say it sold well would be an understatement.

Anno 2070 too sold over 700 000 copies, and there's nothing mainstream about it. There is still a market for riskier, more niche games, publishers just have to ensure their games are top quality in order for it to succeed in that market.