Tomb Raider rape scene is purely physical intimidation

[OmegaFenix]

And I don't think including a rape scene in a video game is the way to do it. At this point, it would be like teaching a toddler about gender and sex by showing them porn.

An adventure game is not the appropriate place for any sort of discourse about sexual violence against women. The whole context just completely trivialises it.

If the rest of the Tomb Raider reboot was the same as the old Tomb Raider and the context of the rest of the video didn't already setup a darker more mature tone then I would agree with you but everything we've seen about the new Tomb Raider has suggested it is taking a step back from ye olde Tomb Raider, with the exception of her killing the dude who groped her I didn't see her shooting anything, animals or otherwise, while doing backflips in her hotpants and tank top. So I would say the tale of a young women surviving on a hostile island and growing as a character is the perfect context to broach this topic with.

Ai.....Why is it that i am so many times not understood!

I was refering to your original message, not your "Source" comment post Hence my reference to Taryn's article. I was not even talking about the post you were refering to but rather referring to another posted article.

SO dude, before you (and M0nk) have to wip out your "Wit" as you call it, read what i am saying. Also i dont see how i insulted your post?

http://mygaming.co.za/news/news/39638-crystal-dynamics-subjects-lara-croft-to-an-attempted-rape.html

Maybe because you post like moron. I mentioned wit, not Monk. We did read what you posted be could not make heads or tail of it since this "original message" wasn't quoted, so how in the name of my 1 holy sock are we suppose to know what in blazes you are on about?

Protip #69: If material not in the article or thread is referred to post either A) a link to referred article/post/thing or B)Quote original material.

I cant agree with you at all. What makes this "rape" scene so horrible for you, where shooting or knifing an AI player is now considered trivial? Age restrictions on games are way to low. I really believe with this new Lara game they want to move with the age of the player who played the original way back. In other words an older audience, hence the building up of the character.

The fact that she is a women who sees the situation differently than we, as guys, sees it.

 

[Wurnman]

Hey OmegaFenix you are one of those persons who have to comment on everyone's post and rectify them. Allways mr. right. There's one in every forum.
Really dude, read what i am saying before posting. Please dont make me quote and spell out my post so that you can understand it.

Guessing by your swearing you are under the age of 23, if not then you need to mature a bit.

 

[MOnk]

The pinnacle of sexuality presented in mainstream video games so far is probably in Mass Effect - that's two people, fully dressed, moving awkwardly around each other on a bed after making the correct sequence of dialogue choices. Out of the mainstream, it's stuff like RapeLay.

You are referring to ME3 which I've said before took a huge step back when it comes to portraying adult relationships. ME1 and ME2 did this far better, rivalling many a movie. Also Uncharted might have something to say about your calling ME3's 'highschool hookup' the pinnacle of mainstream sexuality.

Don't even try to compare sexual themes in video games with sexual themes in movies and films. Maybe one day games will be better equipped to deal with that sort of thing, but now? Definitely not.

That's like saying you must learn how to ride a bike by watching other people ride bikes because you're not allowed to ride one because you don't know how to ride a bike. The only way you mature your way of thinking is by dealing with and thinking about more mature topics. The whole 'kiddie table' attitude many people have towards games is silly when you have popular shows which revolve ENTIRELY around casual sexual relations and then you point to that and say "Look this industry is mature enough to be immature".

So I'll come back to the actual clip again, if just a HINT of sexual assault can results in people throwing theirs toys out the cot then how exactly are these topics suppose to be handled when just their mention elicits scorn and damnation.

To reference your rather crass analogy, it would be like teaching a child about the human reproductive system without mentioning anything do with sex.

EDIT:
ANYWAY, since I haven't played the game yet I'm going to reserve any further comments until such time. For now I will concede that this could potentially be portrayed very badly in the game and thus be more offensive to the player than constructive to the player's character, but I don't agree that mere principle should dictate the topic be avoided completely in games.

 

[MOnk]

Please dont make me quote and spell out my post so that you can understand it.

So your goal is to construct posts which are not understood?

If two people say they don't understand what you are saying, your reaction shouldn't be to chirp them. Just make it clear and then everyone can go home happy.

 

[Azimuth]

I cant agree with you at all. What makes this "rape" scene so horrible for you, where shooting or knifing an AI player is now considered trivial?

Shooting hundreds of bad guys in a video game is also very, very firmly within the fairy-dusted realms of pretend-pretend. Sexual violence against women? Not so much.

I'm a woman living in a country where my chances of being a victim of sexual violence are one in three. Excuse me if I'd prefer a little less grim fucking reality in my entertainment.

Age restrictions on games are way to low. I really believe with this new Lara game they want to move with the age of the player who played the original way back. In other words an older audience, hence the building up of the character.

You think that age restrictions actually matter? They're there to indemnify the publisher against legal action, not to predict who's going to buy them. If you really believe that only adults are going to play Tomb Raider, you're very much mistaken.

Also, maybe if the franchise hadn't originally made its name with Lara Croft's boobs and bum, people would be more inclined to take this seriously. Sure, it's a reboot, but it's not proved itself yet. Instead, this comes off as a cheap marketing tactic, and for all the wrong reasons.

 

[OmegaFenix]

Hey OmegaFenix you are one of those persons who have to comment on everyone's post and rectify them. Allways mr. right. There's one in every forum.
Really dude, read what i am saying before posting. Please dont make me quote and spell out my post so that you can understand it.

Guessing by your swearing you are under the age of 23, if not then you need to mature a bit.

Oh Boy! Recap time!

Well said. Actually calling games nowadays "Video Games" is an insult. Games aren't mainly played by kids under 16yrs of age anymore. The majority of gamers are over 25yrs and as far as i know are called adults.

Therefore games can now be played as adult contented games, played by adults. To me the evolution of games has been from a video game (arcade style) to a playable movie. The AI have become more than mere playable avatars, they grab you and hold on long after you have completed the game. Lara's been such a character for me long time ago. So also Geralt of Rivia etc.


No if the rape scene builds the game character so much that she is more than a avatar anymore then i say go for it. What is disturbing is when a gaming company put you the user in control of raping or interrogating/killing a prisoner like one of the Call of Duty games did (if memory serves)


Im not for that. Tarryns article is a typical polical bs stand on men and women. Im sorry but I allways play with a girl character when the game allows. Women kicks ass just as much as men, especially in games. I use a women character for many many reasons not just to help out a women just because im her manly saviour. I agree i dont see the hype on the net over the rape scene.

Yah i read all the articles regarding the Rape scene...(even the source as you pointed out). I was just put off by Taryn's stupid comments. Sorry if i missed her humour or sarcasim in her article. Just tired of Politicians and their ilk trying to tell everyone else on what to do and say, when they all say the same s&*t over and over. Here in Saffaland we know all about this.


I saw the rape scene and would not call it a rape scene at all. It's the same Americans spoiling it for everyone else again.

Ai.....Why is it that i am so many times not understood!


I was refering to your original message, not your "Source" comment post Hence my reference to Taryn's article. I was not even talking about the post you were refering to but rather referring to another posted article.


SO dude, before you (and M0nk) have to wip out your "Wit" as you call it, read what i am saying. Also i dont see how i insulted your post?


http://mygaming.co.za/news/news/39638-crystal-dynamics-subjects-lara-croft-to-an-attempted-rape.html

I cant agree with you at all. What makes this "rape" scene so horrible for you, where shooting or knifing an AI player is now considered trivial? Age restrictions on games are way to low. I really believe with this new Lara game they want to move with the age of the player who played the original way back. In other words an older audience, hence the building up of the character.

No quickly take your own advice and read all the stuff you have posted carefully.

Done? OK!

In your very first post you reference Tarryn, in a thread about an article she didn't write with no mention of then what the fuck you are on about. Then you fail to see this when I & Monk point out to you, quite politely I might add, that we have no idea what you are on about.

Then you mix up what I said with what Monk said.

From there it goes down hill but fast. Culminating in your last post for which I will use this, something I have been saving for a while;

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard.
At only the briefest of points in your rambling, incoherent response where you even close to anything that could be considered on topic.
Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having read your posts. I am considering de-repping you, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Now either get on the topic or get out.

 

[MOnk]

I'm a woman living in a country where my chances of being a victim of sexual violence are one in three. Excuse me if I'd prefer a little less grim fucking reality in my entertainment.

I get that, there are topics in which I feel the same but the thing is this is one game and if you don't want to play it then that's fine but it doesn't mean it shouldn't get made or they should change it just for your sensibilities.

It just seems you've taken this overly negative and sensational stance to a possibly very minor incident in what may be a very good game. I'm not going to judge the game by the 5mins that got shown at E3 but you seem to be judging it on a 2s clip.

You think that age restrictions actually matter? They're there to indemnify the publisher against legal action, not to predict who's going to buy them. If you really believe that only adults are going to play Tomb Raider, you're very much mistaken.

Yet more double standards. If you can defend gratuitous sex and violence in movies and series as being aimed at adults and thus properly restricted and then say well you can't have adult games because kids will play them regardless of age restriction.

Those are the same arguments used by anti-game activists in the USA and UK and time after time have been smacked down. Just because lazy parents buy adult games for their children doesn't mean adults have to suffer.

Also age restrictions have little to do with legal indemnity.

 

[OmegaFenix]

Shooting hundreds of bad guys in a video game is also very, very firmly within the fairy-dusted realms of pretend-pretend. Sexual violence against women? Not so much.

I'm a woman living in a country where my chances of being a victim of sexual violence are one in three. Excuse me if I'd prefer a little less grim fucking reality in my entertainment.



You think that age restrictions actually matter? They're there to indemnify the publisher against legal action, not to predict who's going to buy them. If you really believe that only adults are going to play Tomb Raider, you're very much mistaken.

Also, maybe if the franchise hadn't originally made its name with Lara Croft's boobs and bum, people would be more inclined to take this seriously. Sure, it's a reboot, but it's not proved itself yet. Instead, this comes off as a cheap marketing tactic, and for all the wrong reasons.

What Monk said.

I get that, there are topics in which I feel the same but the thing is this is one game and if you don't want to play it then that's fine but it doesn't mean it shouldn't get made or they should change it just for your sensibilities.

It just seems you've taken this overly negative and sensational to a possibly very minor incident in what may be a very good game. I'm not going to judge the game but the 5mins that got shown at E3 but you seem to be judging it on a 2s clip.

I just hope this negative press doesn't make the final product reject this darker tone and revert back to ye olde Tomb Raider just for the sake of crowd pleasing.

 

[Azimuth]

I get that, there are topics in which I feel the same but the thing is this is one game and if you don't want to play it then that's fine but it doesn't mean it shouldn't get made or they should change it just for your sensibilities.

It just seems you've taken this overly negative and sensational to a possibly very minor incident in what may be a very good game. I'm not going to judge the game but the 5mins that got shown at E3 but you seem to be judging it on a 2s clip.

Actually, apart from this, I think Tomb Raider looks like it's going to be a super game. My point is, I don't think this game is an appropriate platform for any sort of presentation of sexual violence themes. The whole context, as I've previously said, trivialises it. It's an action adventure game. Consider it, for a moment - this is the latest game in a series that doesn't exactly have a good reputation for its presentation of women, and while that may well change for the better this time around, using a subject like sexual violence should not be a part of that.

As a medium, video gaming is still treading the murky waters of sexual objectification and adolescent-grade imaginings of sexuality. You can't undo that, or hope to change that, by using rape. Also, the way it was originally explained as a method of inculcating some feeling of protectiveness in the player is cheap, manipulative, and problematically sexist.

 

[Azimuth]

ITT: Men telling women how they should feel about rape.

I'm done.

 

[Wurnman]

Fair enough...

Misunderstanding 1 - Yah i read all the articles regarding the Rape scene...(even the source as you pointed out). I was just put off by Taryn's stupid comments

Explanation 1 - Yah i read all the articles regarding... [means all posted articles here on mygaming.co.za website] / (even the source as you pointed out) [here i acknowledges his reply quote on my post, telling him i read his link the "Source" link he supplied] My comment was on his original post not the "Source" link.

Misunderstanding 2 - Comment by OmegaFenix // Maybe because you post like moron. I mentioned wit, not Monk

Explanation 2 - My comment // SO dude, before you (and M0nk) have to wip out your "Wit" as you call it, read what i am saying. / if you take out the (and M0nk) part, what does the sentence tell you? The "you" i am refering to is OmegaFenix, not so?

Funny i never "chirped" you (M0nk) or Omega before my last few posts, yet you guys laid into me like a couple of school boys.

Suffice to say, i am sorry for not making sense even though it made sense to me. Apologies, I will refrain from commenting further.

So your goal is to construct posts which are not understood?

If two people say they don't understand what you are saying, your reaction shouldn't be to chirp them. Just make it clear and then everyone can go home happy.

 

[OmegaFenix]

Fair enough...

Misunderstanding 1 - Yah i read all the articles regarding the Rape scene...(even the source as you pointed out). I was just put off by Taryn's stupid comments

Funnily enough we still dont know what comments you are referring to....

 

[MOnk]

ITT: Men telling women how they should feel about rape.

I'm done.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

I don't see it as men telling women how to feel about anything I just see it as human beings discussing a sensitive topic.

 

[Dan]

Wurnman, Omega: take it to PM, please.

 

[OmegaFenix]

Wurnman, Omega: take it to PM, please.

Already have Rusty. Its a mission for me so please delete all my irrelevant post (from this thread only please before you get ideas. )

 

[Necuno]

I just see it as human beings discussing a sensitive topic.

I see that, but I also see people getting to excited bout it.

Can't say I'm too kosher with watching rape in game or performing it. Sure is a sensitivity for myself I'd probably skip on the title, makes me wonder of my sig again.

:edit
Makes me want to ask:
To what extend should games reflect reality?
What is the point then of using it as a form of escapism or entertainment?
What is the difference between watching it in game, being ok with it and doing it yourself?
Would it make people go out and rape?

I know the last question(s) is extreme, but you have to wonder with some people. Not everyone is just instantly brought up with good set of values and what is the difference between reality and gamers.

 

[Wurnman]

Hey Prophet, concerning to what extend games should reflect reality, i say it depends on who the games are aimed at, adult or under age.

Personally the scene is not rape scene to me at all (i love the fact that she deter her attacker in the scene before it became rape), its done very tastefully. Honestly, we play violent games where we shoot each other or kill each other and it's fine but now this scene comes along and it is a problem. Are we so as gamers, dull to violence that it does not register as wrong? Should shooting someone in a game also not attract the same disdain as rape?

I see that, but I also see people getting to excited bout it.

Can't say I'm too kosher with watching rape in game or performing it. Sure is a sensitivity for myself I'd probably skip on the title, makes me wonder of my sig again.

:edit
Makes me want to ask:
To what extend should games reflect reality?
What is the point then of using it as a form of escapism or entertainment?
What is the difference between watching it in game, being ok with it and doing it yourself?
Would it make people go out and rape?

I know the last question(s) is extreme, but you have to wonder with some people. Not everyone is just instantly brought up with good set of values and what is the difference between reality and gamers.

 

[Necuno]

I hear you. Made think about this all over again having watched Lockout were clear indication of attempted rape, but flick went on.. and so what.

However Azumith still has a valid points imho.

Interesting to see that head in ground now is applied, maybe this topic will just go away, but do remember you will get sand up your nose.

Would it be valid to put something like manhunt and rapeplay in the same bucket? Could you be playing both because in the end both is extremes of forms violence ?

I'd still rather shoot...

:edit
One can punt age restriction all you want, but torrents are blind to it.

 

[Wurnman]

Man, headhunt & Rapeplay are sick games really but people like that. Like the violence and vulgarity of it i suppose. The Japanese are a weird bunch to be honest, they like games like that, Sexy Beach 3/Virtual Girls, all porno type games. But yes i hear what you saying about Headhunt & Rapeplay being in their way violent. So in a way i'm saying is that we as humans can get very use to something very quickly. In a sick way playing games like that we will become immune to them and not notice the morality barrier that is broken. Hence violent shooting games are now considered as normal.

Tomb Raider game is totally different and I stand firm in believing that the scene is not as harsh as people make it out.

As for torrents and age restrictions on games, those things will not stop an underage gamer downloading/playing them, it starts with the parents. But what is easier, buying/downloading your kid a game to shut him up or spending some time with them after a busy day at work?

I hear you. Made think about this all over again having watched Lockout were clear indication of attempted rape, but flick went on.. and so what.

However Azumith still has a valid points imho.

Interesting to see that head in ground now is applied, maybe this topic will just go away, but do remember you will get sand up your nose.

Would it be valid to put something like manhunt and rapeplay in the same bucket? Could you be playing both because in the end both is extremes of forms violence ?

I'd still rather shoot...

:edit
One can punt age restriction all you want, but torrents are blind to it.