'Blasphemous" Bioshock Infinite: upset gamer gets refund

[Neo]

Jeremy and I took a look at the PEGI rating and they do have provision for highlighting discrimination, which includes religious and racial stuff - something that Infinite has in spades.

Strangely this notation didn't make it onto their rating for the game: http://www.pegi.info/en/index/global_id/505/?searchString=bioshock+infinite

We have mailed them to find out why, and what may have gone wrong there.

Awesomeballs. Investigative journalism at its best. Shot James!

I actually wrote a nice, long comment for the other "usual bunch" on here, but I realized that if you cannot understand the difference between being exposed to violence and having your religious beliefs mocked, then it's pointless to reply. But then again, the comments on here are the same as ice-skaters making comments on why our national cricket team needs a new coach. It really ends up not mattering at all. If you are not religious yourself, you have zero weigh-in on the matter to start with. In fact, I don't think there's any religious person on here (woah, that narrowed it down) that would not approve of Valve's behavior. Show me one that doesn't, and I'll show you a liar.

 

[Pooky]

Wtf Neo how is a baptism scene mocking beliefs.

You would think God was big enough not to need people to rush to his aid all the time.

 

[bradbear117]

I believe in God. I believe in Jesus Christ dying for our sins. I believe that God is the ultimate badass who also happens to be totally awesome!

I can tell you there is nothing offensive about the baptism scene. Valve should have told that guy to get stuffed but they are obviously not a bunch of charismatic money whoring ministers, they clearly belong to a bikers church because those guys are great!

Yes, I am a christian who has a problem with a lot of these goody two-shoes christians. PUNK RAWK!!!

 

[Avatar]

Awesomeballs. Investigative journalism at its best. Shot James!

I actually wrote a nice, long comment for the other "usual bunch" on here, but I realized that if you cannot understand the difference between being exposed to violence and having your religious beliefs mocked, then it's pointless to reply. But then again, the comments on here are the same as ice-skaters making comments on why our national cricket team needs a new coach. It really ends up not mattering at all. If you are not religious yourself, you have zero weigh-in on the matter to start with. In fact, I don't think there's any religious person on here (woah, that narrowed it down) that would not approve of Valve's behavior. Show me one that doesn't, and I'll show you a liar.

Neo. If you weren't just a rude arsehole half the time, people would take you a bit more seriously. Spewing insults where no-one deserves them is childish, and nothing else.

Firstly, where did you gather the opinion that anyone's religious beliefs were mocked? I thought you did not play the game?

Secondly, presuming to tell people who does and does not have the right to an opinion on a matter is kind of oppressive and offensive on a whole different level. You don't get to decide that. You don't get to tell others that. That is not yours.

Third, I do approve of Valve's behaviour, but not for the reasons you think; they had a customer with a complaint, that made a fair case about his opinion. They were in a position to treat the clients wishes with respect, while also fulfilling their duty as a company in making sure that they're not being taken for a ride (and trust me, they would not just do this willy nilly).

Finally, I'm a religious man loving Bioshock. The baptism scene was powerful and perturbing and disturbing, as were many others I've encountered in my hour or so of play, but it never mocks. It treats the subject matter with absolute respect. The entire point of these scene were to show how detached this society is. How their own religion and political belief system has been skewed and broken and mutated, and the while the game draws parallels to all religions, it very, very clearly separates the in game happenings as something disgusting.

Also, we don't have a national ice skating team, much less a coach. I'll weigh in where I like, thank you.

 

[Graal]

I actually wrote a nice, long comment for the other "usual bunch" on here, but I realized that if you cannot understand the difference between being exposed to violence and having your religious beliefs mocked,

Neo, have you actually played the game or are you just speaking out of pure ignorance again? Please, go play the game and then tell me where the game mocks your religious beliefs. Please, I implore you, because if it happens in the game I certainly missed it.

Once again you prove why your rep is in the red.

 

[C-Bear]

I'd just like to point out the error in the argument stating it's hypocritical to have a problem with blasphemy but tolerate killing in games. Violence is simulated, pretend, not real. You can't have pretend, or simulated blasphemy. If you shoot a pixel at a pixel you didn't hurt or kill anyone, but if you blaspheme in a game you most certainly have blasphemed for real (not necessarily the player, though...)

Ultimately, what's more important is what you make of it and the objective of the message. In this case, I believe the blasphemy is just a cheap story tool that the writers used to set the scene. But... it's not necessary to freak out about this sort of thing because A) your reaction isn't doing anyone any good, and you're not making the world a better place by freaking out, and B) you're just making yourself look like a nutcase. Religious people are looked down on enough already, no need to make it worse.

Still, it was a good move by Valve to refund the user. I wish businesses in SA would provide this kind of service and show such a strong customer focus they may have lost a sale but they kept a customer happy

 

[Glordit]

I'd just like to point out the error in the argument stating it's hypocritical to have a problem with blasphemy but tolerate killing in games. Violence is simulated, pretend, not real. You can't have pretend, or simulated blasphemy. If you shoot a pixel at a pixel you didn't hurt or kill anyone, but if you blaspheme in a game you most certainly have blasphemed for real (not necessarily the player, though...)

Ultimately, what's more important is what you make of it and the objective of the message. In this case, I believe the blasphemy is just a cheap story tool that the writers used to set the scene. But... it's not necessary to freak out about this sort of thing because A) your reaction isn't doing anyone any good, and you're not making the world a better place by freaking out, and B) you're just making yourself look like a nutcase. Religious people are looked down on enough already, no need to make it worse.

Still, it was a good move by Valve to refund the user. I wish businesses in SA would provide this kind of service and show such a strong customer focus they may have lost a sale but they kept a customer happy

Sorry but extremists are looked down upon, try not to generalise since it makes everyone look bad.

 

[the auditor]

I, like the gamer mentioned above, am a devoted Christian. Furthermore, I am actually a Sunday school teacher! I will give my opinion here like I do with the Sunday school kids (all in grade 12). I have played the game, and I must say, that scene did make me a bit uncomfortable. I decided to play the game, seeing that as an important part of the story (after playing the scene I read up on the internet on the scene). At the end of the day it makes sense to put the scene in, but I wouldn't say it was a crucial part (IMO). I just wondered afterwards if the game couldn't have been just as great without the bombardment of religious images. I agree with one of the other comments, which is the same as what I tell the Sunday school kids. Each one of us know what we are comfortable with, as a Christian or non-Christian. Each one of us will draw the line based on our upbringing, morals and religion. I can not tell you where to draw line, and you can not tell me where to draw line, that is your own issue, and it is issue which I decide through thought, prayer and discussions like these. This game was on the edge of that line for me, finished it, will not play it again.

 

[Graal]

But... it's fiction. The protagonist (READ: not you) is being baptized under a fictional religion. Is it really that bad watching something fictional happen in a fictional setting?

Either way, if you think the baptism scene wasn't a crucial part of the story then I think you didn't quite understand the story. The baptism is pretty much what the entire story hinges on, but I'll not go into further detail here for fear of posting spoilers for those who have not yet played the game.

 

[Pooky]

I love religious imagery in games, books, movies etc. It somehow creates depth and makes things sinister,like in Dan Brown's books

 

[Avatar]

I, like the gamer mentioned above, am a devoted Christian. Furthermore, I am actually a Sunday school teacher! I will give my opinion here like I do with the Sunday school kids (all in grade 12). I have played the game, and I must say, that scene did make me a bit uncomfortable. I decided to play the game, seeing that as an important part of the story (after playing the scene I read up on the internet on the scene). At the end of the day it makes sense to put the scene in, but I wouldn't say it was a crucial part (IMO). I just wondered afterwards if the game couldn't have been just as great without the bombardment of religious images. I agree with one of the other comments, which is the same as what I tell the Sunday school kids. Each one of us know what we are comfortable with, as a Christian or non-Christian. Each one of us will draw the line based on our upbringing, morals and religion. I can not tell you where to draw line, and you can not tell me where to draw line, that is your own issue, and it is issue which I decide through thought, prayer and discussions like these. This game was on the edge of that line for me, finished it, will not play it again.

Well said, IMO. I just disagree in that I do believe the bombardment, as you accurately called it, was necessary. Bioshock had a similar thing with the messiah complex and it made for a great story on the frailty of man wielding power.

Either way, if you think the baptism scene wasn't a crucial part of the story then I think you didn't quite understand the story. The baptism is pretty much what the entire story hinges on, but I'll not go into further detail here for fear of posting spoilers for those who have not yet played the game.

Ty for making this a spoiler friendly post.

But... it's fiction. The protagonist (READ: not you) is being baptized under a fictional religion. Is it really that bad watching something fictional happen in a fictional setting?

That comes down to the all-important question of immersion in games. Do we 'become' the protagonist while we play? What if it's a clearly defined character with a clearly defined story? IMO, that's exactly where I see the original article's complaint's valid point; if the gamer were to be completely immersed in the game, I can completely understand the baptism scene being a very real and traumatic experience.. It was for our protagonist, wasn't it? I've got to say, I was only half paying attention at that point, as my girlfriend was saying something to me, until I hit the button to 'accept baptism'. It was powerful and jarring, to say the least. IMO, though, this makes for a good game, if handled correctly.


EDIT: And thank you for the +rep on my previous post, 'preciate it.

 

[Juvenile]

If I am not physically or emotionally affected by something, it doesn't matter to me. (real-world matters not gaming matters).

When this person watches a movie or series and someone utters the words "Jesus Christ" or "Oh my God"; do they write a complaint to the broadcasting company requesting that their money be paid back - for such blasphemy used in the programs?

 

[JP'S]

I love religious imagery in games, books, movies etc. It somehow creates depth and makes things sinister,like in Dan Brown's books

This.

I didn't really have a problem with the scene... Even though I'm a christian. It's all fictional anyway

 

[Saint_Dee]

Propaganda vs. a portrayal of disturbing themes (I think there is a distinction between disturbing and offensive).

Was the scene created as an attack on any religion or was it a portrayal of a theme in context of the game and its setting?

To draw from a slightly unrelated example, I recently watched Django Unchained, one of the most disturbing and uncomfortable themes in the movie is slavery, and some of the scenes are pretty disturbing (some of them certainly disturbed me), but as black person, I wasn't offended, instead I understood the necessity for these scenes in context of the time and setting of the movie, and it wasn't promoting slavery or anything to that effect. I probably would've enjoyed the movie less if they'd tiptoed around the issues of the world and setting they'd created for the movie in that specific timeline (the movie was a genuinely authentic experience and window into that world).

Back to infinite, was the scene propaganda or a necessary portrayal of a theme found in the game? I have yet to play it, but if the scene is pivotal or crutial to the story and setting of the game, and it works, then as a Christian I think there's no inherent problem because it's not trying to spread propaganda, but rather give an authentic experience of the setting and story. It's not an attack on any religion, but rather a grim outlook on the story, characters, and setting of the game.

Like another poster mentioned above, as different as we are, we are offended by different things whether or not they are intended to offend.

Not the best worded response, but that's my 2 cents.

 

[Lyt]

It's a game, a very good one for that, and I say just fukkit and play. You will have a much better time playing it rather than arguing with people here. This has turned into a religion discussion, and we all know there's no end to that.

Also I don't approve of Valve giving a refund to that man. Any sucker that buys a game and doesn't like it or finds something that offends him can pull the same string and get a refund.

 

[JP'S]

It's a game, a very good one for that, and I say just fukkit and play. You will have a much better time playing it rather than arguing with people here. This has turned into a religion discussion, and we all know there's no end to that.

Also I don't approve of Valve giving a refund to that man. Any sucker that buys a game and doesn't like it or finds something that offends him can pull the same string and get a refund.

It really was a good game. I can't argue with that.

It just shows that Valve cares for its customers.

 

[B1nary]

Okay let me chuck in my two cents here, I am a christian I have chosen not to play certain games in the past because of the content.

Now here is the tricky bit, you cant pin a person down and say oh you don't like the baptism part but violence is okay so now your a hypocrite. Depending on your belief and in this case specifically when it comes to Christianity scripture says if you are convicted by something then don't do it or its sin(referring to moral grey areas), now im not going to get into the semantics of it here but essentially what im trying to point out is, its our choice to what we expose ourselves to and it is the responsibility of the publisher to provide the consumer with enough information to make a proper choice.

I for one really wish they would put some kind of blasphemy warning on games and movies, if they can do it with swearing why not religious blasphemous words and scenes.(yes im aware that some titles have this but its a rarity)

sites like plugged-in are handy at times but don't always provide relevant information in a timely fashion, with such readily available access to the internet and the fact that most gamers obviously have it, it would be great if some form of database was available to people wanting to check game content.

 

[Graal]

The thing is, there's no blasphemy in the game. There's a baptism, and that's it.

 

[Avatar]

To draw from a slightly unrelated example, I recently watched Django Unchained, one of the most disturbing and uncomfortable themes in the movie is slavery, and some of the scenes are pretty disturbing (some of them certainly disturbed me), but as black person, I wasn't offended, instead I understood the necessity for these scenes in context of the time and setting of the movie, and it wasn't promoting slavery or anything to that effect. I probably would've enjoyed the movie less if they'd tiptoed around the issues of the world and setting they'd created for the movie in that specific timeline (the movie was a genuinely authentic experience and window into that world).

Back to infinite, was the scene propaganda or a necessary portrayal of a theme found in the game? I have yet to play it, but if the scene is pivotal or crutial to the story and setting of the game, and it works, then as a Christian I think there's no inherent problem because it's not trying to spread propaganda, but rather give an authentic experience of the setting and story. It's not an attack on any religion, but rather a grim outlook on the story, characters, and setting of the game.

Like another poster mentioned above, as different as we are, we are offended by different things whether or not they are intended to offend.

Not the best worded response, but that's my 2 cents.

I disagree, I think you're comparison with Django Unchained very eloquently sums up how I feel about the portrayal vs. condonement/promotion thing. Well put, IMO.

Okay let me chuck in my two cents here, I am a christian I have chosen not to play certain games in the past because of the content.

This is certainly a fair point; we've all chosen not to play certain games for different criteria. Some dislike violence and gore in games, so they avoided violent games. Some dislike shitty gameplay, so they avoided Superman 64 and ET, and Alian: Colonial Marines. I think the important thing, in general, is that we get to make an informed decision as to what we avoid and what not. The ESBR rating gives us a fair view on violence, metacritic and the internet at large helps us with reviews, but there was nothing to help the client in the article.

Maybe there should be..

 

[Pooky]

How about they just put a 'religious content' sticker on it?

Although I hardly doubt there are many people who care about such things so it may not be worth the bother.