Guild Wars 2

Essentially in that this MMO is entirely grind-intensive, but when I actually grind I get punished for it by the Diminishing Returns system. I have to grind for gold, but then diminishing returns comes and shits all over my income the moment I start to make money. I need to grind mats to get Legendary and Ascended gear, but then diminishing returns comes and shits all over my item drops.
 
How did you come to that conclusion? I'm bitching because I'm forced to grind but I get punished for grinding. I can't spend 3 hours grinding crafting mats in Orr because after 30 minutes DR kicks in and I only get Porous Bones in my drops. I have to come back tomorrow if I want to grind in Orr again.

If I want to do a dungeon to get tokens for a full dungeon set, I can't do it all in one go because after 5 or 6 runs in the dungeon I'm only going to earn 1 token from each run. I have to come back after the DR counter has reset if I want to continue earning dungeon tokens.

Removing the DR won't decrease the amount of grinding you do, it will just mean you can grind more within a certain amount of time.
 
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How did you come to that conclusion? I'm bitching because I'm forced to grind but I get punished for grinding. I can't spend 3 hours grinding crafting mats in Orr because after 30 minutes DR kicks in and I only get Porous Bones in my drops. I have to come back tomorrow if I want to grind in Orr again.
My apologies.

Your explanation threw me off with the whole "grind" thing. I thought it was some kind of terminology.
 
Essentially in that this MMO is entirely grind-intensive, but when I actually grind I get punished for it by the Diminishing Returns system. I have to grind for gold, but then diminishing returns comes and shits all over my income the moment I start to make money. I need to grind mats to get Legendary and Ascended gear, but then diminishing returns comes and shits all over my item drops.

The grind is one of the big reasons I took a break. It really is a grind heavy game if you want the awesome looking loot.
 
Yeah, and that's the thing, if you don't grind for loot at the end of the game, what do you do? Essentially repeat the same content you've been doing since level 1?

I actually think an expansion for this game is long overdue, because as it stands the game is just a bit too lacking in content.
 
Yeah, and that's the thing, if you don't grind for loot at the end of the game, what do you do? Essentially repeat the same content you've been doing since level 1?

I actually think an expansion for this game is long overdue, because as it stands the game is just a bit too lacking in content.

I have to disagree with you. You say it's lacking in content because half of the content you just don't like. That doesn't mean it's got less to do. This game wasn't made for heavy gamers. That was clear from the start. Heavy gamers can only look forward to legendaries, but that is something that comes with time, not constant grinding. They tried making the game fun for everyone. Expecting a game to have an expansion that updates about 1 gig's worth of content a month, is really ridiculous. Especially if it isn't even a year old.
 
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I say it's lacking in content because it's lacking in content. Reaching level 80 pretty much leaves you doing the exact same things you've been doing for the past 79 levels. Lack of any engaging or interesting content is actually one of the key reasons many players stop playing this game. You can only do the same thing so many times before you get bored. Unless walking around a zone for hours to activate PoIs and Vistas as well as spending hours looking at crafting windows is something you consider fun.

I realise they tried making the game fun for everyone, but their hamfisted approach has resulted in them making it fun for only certain types of gamers. Those of us who don't like being herded around and who get forced to do content we don't enjoy find our enjoyment of the game severely hampered. They should have incentivized variety in playstyle, not forced it.

You say it's lacking in content because half of the content you just don't like. That doesn't mean it's got less to do.

I disagree with this. It does actually have less to do than most other MMOs. If you counted all of GW2's heart quests you'd find that the amount heart quests in the entire game is roughly the equivalent of the amount of quests found in 3 or 4 zones in most other MMOs. All the content in GW2 is available in a much higher quantity in most other MMOs.

GW2 does a lot of things right, like the way it handles combat and classes, but it also makes a lot of major missteps. I'm constantly worried while playing GW2. Worried about whether I'm going to have enough XP to go to the next zone. Worried about how I'm going to make enough Karm/Gold to buy equipment so I don't get face-rolled in the next zone. Worried about whether I'm going to hit the DR.

I shouldn't have to be worried in an MMO. I should be having fun.
 
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GW2 does a lot of things right, like the way it handles combat and classes, but it also makes a lot of major missteps. I'm constantly worried while playing GW2. Worried about whether I'm going to have enough XP to go to the next zone. Worried about how I'm going to make enough Karm/Gold to buy equipment so I don't get face-rolled in the next zone. Worried about whether I'm going to hit the DR.

I shouldn't have to be worried in an MMO. I should be having fun.

I've never once had this particular worry. And I've seen people voicing this particular concern a lot, but simply put, if you finish a level 1-15 area and you're level 12, it's a simple case of hopping into one of the other starting areas - you'll hit level 20 long before you clear it. At which point you move on to the higher level area if you really want to, but you're usually better off just clearing out that area before moving on.

I hit level 80 long before I hit Cursed Shore, and I've never had to worry about money or karma either. Simply put, by the time I reached level 80 I had enough karma to buy myself a full set of exotics - getting karma in GW2 is so simple (especially since they added in daily rewards) it's laughable. I have just over a million karma right now that I have nothing to do with, but I'll probably spend it on my alts. Or I can use it to speed up the acquisition of my legendary.

Money is a little harder to come by, but again I'm in a position where I'm making more than I'm spending - and I only really ever spent money while leveling my crafting.

DR has also never once bothered me - it's only hard-core farmers who seem to get hit by this a lot.
 
And in which other MMO is it necessary to go to another race's starting area to get high enough to go to the next quest hub? In my opinion, it's bad design. If an area says level 1-15, it should at the very least contain enough content to bring you up to level 15. So not only is the content in the areas lacking, but now you have to go to another area to bring up your level. So if I start a human and plan to have one alt of each of the remaining races, chances are I'm going to play through the starting areas multiple times. I can't experience the majesty of the Caledon forest with my Sylvari character, because I've already experienced it with my Human when I needed to get 3 extra levels because the human starter area didn't contain enough content to get me to the human starter area's level cap.

As for DR, it's not really something you hit, it's something that's always there. According to your activities, you get assigned points to DR. For each point you have, your item drop is halved. Getting points is so ridiculously easy that anyone who spends more than half an hour in an area ends up hitting the DR multiple times. This is especially ludicrous in Orr, where the entire map's 'quests' consists of a bunch of dynamic events. Hitting the Karma DR there happens ridiculously fast, meaning that while leveling in the map you're likely to, at one point or another, experience your karma income trickling to a standstill.

The whole thing about the DR is that it's supposedly there to prevent bots, but in actuality it's just there to prevent people getting rich fast. ANet tied their micro-transaction currency directly into the game by making it tradable for gold, so this means they have to tightly regulate the economy to prevent the crystal cost from falling too low. Making gold income slow also helps in that it might coerce some people into buying Crystals with real-life money so they can trade it for gold. The whole thing is actually pretty genius. That's why something that is pretty much a core of MMO gameplay (grinding) is punished by the game system in GW2.

Don't get me wrong, GW2 does a lot of things right, like the combat and the way it handles PvP. However, after a month or so of playing the cracks start showing and this game really starts to feel like a F2P game that you had to buy to play.

All this, plus the fact that they still haven't sorted out the horrendous performance issues that plague the game, as well as the numerous serious bugs in quests that still have not been fixed, months after reporting them, means I'll likely never touch this game again.
 
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@Graal so what mmo is there that is fulfilling for you? I tried GW2 and it sucked tbh... went with for-ever-alone-play for a while and yesterday tried NWN (PW) and it also sucked. Then redownloaded DDO and same thing. Now I'm left with Rift or Wow and neither appeal. What do I want? Not the perfect mmo just something that's not eq-wow modeled and more of uo. That leaves me with Darkfall unholy wars :(

THIS! This has stirred up the the thing of are games today just to simplified and gone are the days where you could mull over your build. I then laughed and thought to myself that I should just fuck this and go back to PnP days :D I mean then I can mull over my built :p

Sigh. Back to for-ever-alone-play :mad:
 
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I don't really think an MMO like that exists. Not anymore, at least. I'm actually contemplating just resubbing to WoW. As mediocre as I find it, I can pick it up again now and jump right back into a community of friends still playing the game and not have to worry about anything at all. I won't have to worry about money, equipment, loot threshholds in the form of DR and I'll never have to worry about running out of things to do or being forced into content I enjoy, even though most of the content in WoW is a bit bland and boring.

I've literally just started playing NWN, so I'll see how that goes, but at this point, after the disappointment GW2 was for me, I think I should just stick to subscription-based MMOs. At least if I pay a sub I know the devs aren't going to try and entice me to spend more money by integrating microtransactions directly into the game or having the microtransaction store influence the game systems in any way.
 
And in which other MMO is it necessary to go to another race's starting area to get high enough to go to the next quest hub? In my opinion, it's bad design. If an area says level 1-15, it should at the very least contain enough content to bring you up to level 15. So not only is the content in the areas lacking, but now you have to go to another area to bring up your level. So if I start a human and plan to have one alt of each of the remaining races, chances are I'm going to play through the starting areas multiple times. I can't experience the majesty of the Caledon forest with my Sylvari character, because I've already experienced it with my Human when I needed to get 3 extra levels because the human starter area didn't contain enough content to get me to the human starter area's level cap.

But it does. The problem remains that people want to rush through the game to get to the end-game (for whatever reason I'm not aware), and in every likelihood, they get to a point where they've "completed" the map and find they're not high enough level to go to the next one up. But in reality they've probably also missed about half the dynamic events on the map. I had this problem in the beta, when I was rushing as well, but with the eventual release, I completely slowed my pace and wandered around a lot, and I have not once, with any of my 7 chars, run into this issue.

The entire game is engineered around the concept of encouraging you to explore, and it rewards you for it.

You say it's bad design, but I think it's an awesome concept. This of course, is a matter of opinion, and different styles of play, but you hate going back to low level content. I love it. I love the fact that I can go back to a low level area and still be faced with the reality that I can get killed if I don't pay attention to my combat; added to that, name one other MMO that still gives you drops and xp in a low level area. And of course, it means that these areas are always populated, and you'll always find people to play with. As opposed to any other MMO where the starter levels are generally deserted.

As for DR, it's not really something you hit, it's something that's always there. According to your activities, you get assigned points to DR. For each point you have, your item drop is halved. Getting points is so ridiculously easy that anyone who spends more than half an hour in an area ends up hitting the DR multiple times. This is especially ludicrous in Orr, where the entire map's 'quests' consists of a bunch of dynamic events. Hitting the Karma DR there happens ridiculously fast, meaning that while leveling in the map you're likely to, at one point or another, experience your karma income trickling to a standstill.

The whole thing about the DR is that it's supposedly there to prevent bots, but in actuality it's just there to prevent people getting rich fast. ANet tied their micro-transaction currency directly into the game by making it tradable for gold, so this means they have to tightly regulate the economy to prevent the crystal cost from falling too low. Making gold income slow also helps in that it might coerce some people into buying Crystals with real-life money so they can trade it for gold. The whole thing is actually pretty genius. That's why something that is pretty much a core of MMO gameplay (grinding) is punished by the game system in GW2.

I'm aware of karma dropping the longer you spend in a zone - especially if you repeat the same events. Again though, I've never once experienced my karma income dropping to a standstill. But I don't spend hours in the same zone doing the same thing over and over. Even in Orr the decrease, after being in the zone for an hour, is laughably negligible. And if you switch zones, you can pull in ridiculous amounts of karma. Especially as a level 80. But then again you don't seem to like doing that.

The same thing applies to making gold. Really, I don't push much, but if I really wanted to I could pull in a couple of gold in a session. If I used crafting I could pull in even more. Onslaught apparently pulls in between 10 - 15 gold on a daily basis, but he has more patience than I do - which includes several dungeon runs in a row. I can handle one or two at most, but I've never been a huge fan of dungeon instances, much to the amusement of my fellow guildies, but this is arguably one of the best ways to earn money.

Chasing the regional bosses is another way, since you're guaranteed a rare drop once a day.

On top of that there are your daily achievements, which will likely be another point of contention, but guarantee you a minimum of 6.5k of Karma - but in all honestly you can get them done in about 30 minutes while just randomly running around and killing things. Monthlies give you 60k, and are easy enough that you can complete them in the first week of the month already.

Don't get me wrong, GW2 does a lot of things right, like the combat and the way it handles PvP. However, after a month or so of playing the cracks start showing and this game really starts to feel like a F2P game that you had to buy to play.

All this, plus the fact that they still haven't sorted out the horrendous performance issues that plague the game, as well as the numerous serious bugs in quests that still have not been fixed, months after reporting them, means I'll likely never touch this game again.

It's a pity, but I do think your approach to the game, as well as your playstyle probably means that GW2 isn't best suited to you. I've been playing it pretty much non-stop for the past 7 months, and what you see as cracks I see as minor inconveniences, which for the most part get fixed pretty soon. As for bugs, the only ones I still encounter lately are the odd dynamic event chain that gets stalled.

New content gets added on a monthly basis, so there's pretty much something new every month, and even when I've played through that, I find there's always something to do - which right now includes exploring the different race-storylines, and messing with the different professions. I can see myself still playing GW2 for a long time to come - by the time I eventually finish my legendary I'm sure there will be something else for me to aim at.
 
I disagree with this. It does actually have less to do than most other MMOs. If you counted all of GW2's heart quests you'd find that the amount heart quests in the entire game is roughly the equivalent of the amount of quests found in 3 or 4 zones in most other MMOs. All the content in GW2 is available in a much higher quantity in most other MMOs.

Therein lies your problem. Heart quests are only a portion of the game's available content. They only exist to encourage you to explore the far reaches of zones and to discover dynamic events along the way. If you're rushing through zones merely completing heart quests without stopping to participate in and/or initiate dynamic events, then you're missing out on a massive chunk of content that's similar to your average heart quest but not marked by a heart on the map. Dynamic events have always been championed as the defining factor of GW2's PvE and what sets it apart from the majority of other MMO's out there such as WoW. Thus you can't merely tally the number of heart quests in GW2, compare it to the number of quests in WoW and use that as a measure of content, because WoW doesn't have any dynamic events to bring to the table.

I also find the suggestion that ArenaNet are forcing people into a particular playstyle a little confusing. Personally, I've been playing since Beta Weekend 2. Up until a month ago, I had one character in total. It's been level 80 since shortly after launch and had 27% map completion. After a recent push of note, I'm finally sitting at 51% map completion and have only just started touching the starting areas of other races. The one thing about Guild Wars 2 that I've found most compelling during this time compared to other MMO's is that you gain XP for doing almost anything...from gathering to crafting to repairing walls in WvW. I enjoy WvW, so I spend much of my time there and that's where I've leveled, but that in itself disproves the notion that I'm being forced to play content that I don't enjoy. I haven't done that once. I hardly touched the PvE campaign at all before level 80. I've hardly delved into crafting, I've done 2 whole dungeons, there are scores of jumping puzzles I've yet to do, I didn't really participate in holiday events...the list goes on and on.
 
My ranger is gna LOVE wvw now :P even more traps hehehehe :P

Yes, but now everyone can use them :p

I'd like to see how they work in practice though, but it should be interesting. Would be uber-fun if I could lure those super annoying thiefs into a trap and kill him while he's unable to vanish again.
 
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