Checkpointing frequency in Games

[Lycanthrope]

The checkpoint system is absurd. I have no idea how it's managed to stay around so long.

If I want to get up from a game, I really want to get the fuck up from the game and not replay the last 30-minutes.

If I want to mess around with dialogue options, I really don't want to have to restart the game to do so.

If I want to see what a different outcome of a certain action will be, I really don't want to have to "do it all over again."

The checkpoint system is a ridiculous farce, originally implemented on old devices because of memory limitations and now imposed on us in modern games because:

 

[Tsar]

I think quick saves is a cheap way to not balance your games difficulty.

How so? If the game was balanced correctly in the first place it wouldn't matter if you save. Its not like you gain health or what not from saving. I remember in quake for have 4 health and being stuck on a quick save,the save didn't make it any easier.

 

[reedOsama]

Quick saves are a godsend for RPG's where you need to make those decisions that affect the rest of the game: "you've gotten romantic with so-and-so, so now you can't get to see the sex-scene with the other chick... the one you were actually trying to woo" "whistling:

BUT quick saving before a really difficult scenario is the WORST !

 

[Hagan]

Far Cry 3 unfortunately suffered from this "evil" known as 'checkpointing', though some were annoyingly far apart - I still love the game, and replayed it until my PC... -- anyway - in gaming (on PC -- today) you'd expect quicksaving option, especially open-world games.

I'm not one to spam QS. I instead, save where I feel is most necessary and safe to do so.

Like in Dishonored. Checkpoints weren't horrendously far apart (forcing the player to replay a good number of minutes of that EXACT same shit you JUST completed... Needlessly!) and allowed the player to quicksave, if they so desire.

I have had many of those "A-GAIN!! All that kak I just did -- FROM OVER?!!" moments.

Edit:

Some games are an exception to this rule - namely Dark Souls, as you need to play tactically and strategically to progress - and not be swarmed by a seemingly insurmountable swarm-after- swarm of enemies.

 

[Hagan]

Quick saves are a godsend for RPG's where you need to make those decisions that affect the rest of the game: "you've gotten romantic with so-and-so, so now you can't get to see the sex-scene with the other chick... the one you were actually trying to woo" "whistling:

BUT quick saving before a really difficult scenario is the WORST !

I did some foolish saving while playing Skyrim - and sometimes had to load a good number of hours of gameplay back.

 

[Grievous]

How so? If the game was balanced correctly in the first place it wouldn't matter if you save. Its not like you gain health or what not from saving. I remember in quake for have 4 health and being stuck on a quick save,the save didn't make it any easier.

Because you can spam your way through a game no matter how difficult the game is. Kill one guy, sweet didn't lose any life, save. Dark souls is an awesome game that would be broken by quick saves. I enjoy the challenge, for me quick saving takes that challenge away to a large extent.

 

[Ike_009]

Isn't quicksaving a game before making a decision cheating. I mean what's the point in having players make a choice when their gonna just quicksave and go back to the start if they aren't happy with their result. What happened to choice and consequences which was also the point in having the decision.

 

[Grievous]

Isn't quicksaving a game before making a decision cheating. I mean what's the point in having players make a choice when their gonna just quicksave and go back to the start if they aren't happy with their result. What happened to choice and consequences which was also the point in having the decision.

I'm a fan of roguelike games, most get around that sort of thing in that the game auto saves all the time and you only have one save. Once you make a decision the game saves and there is no going back.

 

[Lycanthrope]

Isn't quicksaving a game before making a decision cheating. I mean what's the point in having players make a choice when their gonna just quicksave and go back to the start if they aren't happy with their result. What happened to choice and consequences which was also the point in having the decision.

Perhaps because most often the dialogue choices are very ambiguous and the reaction you expect is not the reaction that you get. The ol Mass Effect dialogue wheel of doom is a great example of that.

 

[Ike_009]

Perhaps because most often the dialogue choices are very ambiguous and the reaction you expect is not the reaction that you get. The ol Mass Effect dialogue wheel of doom is a great example of that.

And how often do reactions go perfectly with your expectations in your day to day conversations. I can see ambiguity being an issue but surely one could argue that sorting out the source is better than treating symptoms in which case isn't a clearer scroll wheel also not a valid solution.

 

[Lycanthrope]

And how often do reactions go perfectly with your expectations in your day to day conversations.

In day-to-day conversations you are also able to back-track if there's a misunderstanding and clarify your intended meaning.

I can see ambiguity being an issue but surely one could argue that sorting out the source is better than treating symptoms in which case isn't a clearer scroll wheel also not a valid solution.

They could have lines of text as well, as back in the days of Baldur's Gate, Arcanum, et al but that doesn't change the fact that how you might read a line of text may not be the tone the character takes. Such things as sarcasm, rhetoric and circumstance play a large role in how any one sentence or line of dialogue may be interpreted.

Again, the simple solution is to allow people to save when and where they want. Dialogue selection is not the only aspect that a save-when-you-want feature benefits.

 

[Clive Woofer]

I really just fail to see how quicksaving when you want or where you want makes the game easier to a degree that it can be considered hand-holding. The only difference between quicksaving and checkpoints in that regard is that with one of them you have to redo sections of the game you've already played through.

The entire "I've got full health so now I'll quicksave" thing is also laughably ironic, seeing as in games that employ checkpoints more often than not your health will be reset to full when you reload that checkpoint, regardless of whether you initially passed that checkpoint with a full healthbar. And very often players abuse this mechanic if an encounter after a checkpoint is particularly difficult. At least with quicksaves if you save while you only have 3% health, that's the health you're going to have when you load that quicksave again.

Perhaps because most often the dialogue choices are very ambiguous and the reaction you expect is not the reaction that you get. The ol Mass Effect dialogue wheel of doom is a great example of that.

This too. Even worse, sometimes the dialog choice you choose is not the one you get. Mass Effect and Dragon Age are very big culprits when it comes to this. You choose a dialog choice and then your character says something completely different to what the dialog choice made you think he was going to say.

 

[Lycanthrope]

This too. Even worse, sometimes the dialog choice you choose is not the one you get. Mass Effect and Dragon Age are very big culprits when it comes to this. You choose a dialog choice and then your character says something completely different to what the dialog choice made you think he was going to say.

Yeah, or when you accidentally hit the wrong one for whatever reason.

There's a multitude of reasons why being able to save where you want is beneficial.

I'd never thought of it as "cheating" before--that's a new one for me.

I play games to have fun, not endure needless frustration.

 

[Ike_009]

I play games to have fun, not endure needless frustration.

That's the problem there, fun is a very subjective measure of a game.

 

[Lycanthrope]

That's the problem there, fun is a very subjective measure of a game.

Alright, then let me ask you how a proper save function inhibits your personal enjoyment of a game?

 

[Clive Woofer]

I'd never thought of it as "cheating" before--that's a new one for me.

Me too. I've actually always heard things to the contrary. Most people I've come into contact with will tell you that a checkpoint save system is a dumbed down console feature and is inferior to a manual save system.

 

[Ike_009]

Alright, then let me ask you how a proper save function inhibits your personal enjoyment of a game?

Firstly when I play a game I don't really care if a conversation reply doesn't go a perfect, I'd rather see where it goes and roll with it.

2nd I prefer having the game save for me so that I can play the game instead of looking for a savepoint or having to stop my flow to save the game every 5 minutes.

3rd if I die and start from the last checkpoint I don't care, gives me a chance to look for another route or try something different. Saying that I also don't know what is around the corner so I won't know when it is best to save until I've passed it.

4th my person preference

 

[Lycanthrope]

Me too. I've actually always heard things to the contrary. Most people I've come into contact with will tell you that a checkpoint save system is a dumbed down console feature and is inferior to a manual save system.

Well, yes, because it is. As I said somewhere else in this thread, it was originally used on early consoles because it was a less resource-intensive way to save.

Checkpoint saves are also easier for developers to cater to because a proper save system essentially saves the "state" of a game and a large number of complexities (health/status effects/position/position of enemies and their health, progress, etc) with it.

So, to me, at least, when I see a checkpoint system in a game, I think that corners have been cut.

In some genres I can understand that there's a sort of "balance" that checkpoint saves help with but, frankly, I've never played a single game (and I'm batty about JRPGs, as a good example) where I've felt that I wouldn't have just preferred the choice.

 

[Lycanthrope]

Firstly when I play a game I don't really care if a conversation reply doesn't go a perfect, I'd rather see where it goes and roll with it.

2nd I prefer having the game save for me so that I can play the game instead of looking for a savepoint or having to stop my flow to save the game every 5 minutes.

3rd if I die and start from the last checkpoint I don't care, gives me a chance to look for another route or try something different. Saying that I also don't know what is around the corner so I won't know when it is best to save until I've passed it.

4th my person preference

And what prevents you from simply saving at the start of what you consider to be "an area" (bearing in mind many games already autosave when entering new areas or approaching difficult situations) and play as though it were a checkpoint? What prevents you from continuing after your conversation doesn't go perfectly?

Again, me being able to save when I want to doesn't detract from you playing the game however you want to.

A quick-save system also makes it convenient to save, thus invalidating point 2.

Once more, I don't see how a proper save system doesn't give both types of gamers what they want.

 

[Ike_009]

And what prevents you from simply saving at the start of what you consider to be "an area" (bearing in mind many games already autosave when entering new areas or approaching difficult situations) and play as though it were a checkpoint? What prevents you from continuing after your conversation doesn't go perfectly?

Again, me being able to save when I want to doesn't detract from you playing the game however you want to.

A quick-save system also makes it convenient to save, thus invalidating point 2.

Once more, I don't see how a proper save system doesn't give both types of gamers what they want.

O no, another gamer doesn't agree with my personal preference on that a autosave save feature isn't more convenient for my gameplay style. How will I ever live with myself.

Also games that checkpoint save do so more frequently than games that don't and have the quick save feature (based on my experience). So instead of a 15 min replay it's an hour replay unless I pause to save the game where a checkpoint would have saved (which isn't convenient (convenience once more being subjective) IMO).

However as I said fun is a subjective measure. The best solution is a game with a checkpoint system and the option to quicksave (or disable autosave) but that's my opinion. I'm not saying autosave is better nor the only option unless your crazy but that it is my preference.