The F1 (Formula One) Thread
- Thread starter lilDeath
- Start date
Ike_009
Assassin of Accountants
That one I hate, I can't see any real life application for that when we and F1 teams already regulate fuel usage. That and faulty tech has no place in F1
Last edited:
Wyvern
Khaleesi
I totally agree, it doesnt have the same feel, its boring and restrictive and the drivers look uninspired
I agree. I used to also enjoy the boring format of quali where all the cars will remain in the pits and all come out in the last 15 mins and blitz laps with just enough fuel on the quali spec engines. Then rebuild the engine for race day, everything was at its pinnacle.
And then?
Grooved tyres, what a farce.
Now we have economical cars trying to make us believe that it's the pinnacle of motorsport, I don't think so.
FIA always limits the technology, I feel it would be better if the constructors make their own series.
Wyvern
Khaleesi
Back to the future
1st April 2014
Truth is, Formula 1's finest never really went away.
As one ex-team principal, newly returned to F1, opined many seasons ago, there are no prizes for the winter championship! Ron Dennis's prophetic words were as true then as they are now.
Red Bull's well-documented pre-season troubles lulled many, bored with the complete and utter domination of the sport by the Milton Keynes-based crew, into a false sense of optimism, grinning with delight in anticipation of the four-times World Champions’ seemingly inevitable slide down the rankings.
Well, ye of little faith, grin no more. Those reporting their demise, it seems, were misinformed.
There has surely never been a Formula 1 team so utterly professional, driven and determined to get to the top and stay there as Dietrich Mateschitz's energy drink-fueled race team. Look at how they're constantly pushing the envelope and the authorities in pursuit of speed and success. Flexi-wings and off-throttle exhaust blowing are just two of their better-known rule-testers, and now the FIA's officially homologated fuel-flow meter is good enough for all teams except, of course, Red Bull.
Post-Jerez and the subsequent Bahrain testing debacle I, like many both within and without the paddock, wondered, wondered how the Red Bull crew would deal with such a setback to the defence of their crown in the technology-driven 21st century F1 world.
Sure there are many wise and experienced heads wearing the blue, red and silver apparel; men who've won, lost and won again. But it's also true that a lot of the guys working on the two RB10s have only ever known - until January 2014 - an ever-climbing upward curve and ultimately unrivalled success.
Relaxed. Calm. Cool. Collected. That's how the men in the Sepang International Circuit's garage No.1 and 2 looked to me during Free Practice 1 last Friday morning. No dramas. No panic. No sweat. Every one of them getting on with their duties, focused and busy, all pulling for the greater good. No tense, bitter and divisive intra-team-mate rivalry - for Red Bull - this season, either. Ever-smiling Australian Daniel Ricciardo isn't about to upset his new team or four-times champion Sebastian Vettel any time soon. A buoyant and upbeat mood abounds as a result.
Out on track there's a similar scene.
"Darren, I've always said if a racing car looks good, it'll be good," said 1976 world champion James Hunt to me way back in 1990. James of course was spot-on with his opinion, and would I'm sure approve of Adrian Newey's latest design aesthetic.
It not only looks good it appears to drive good, too. The way the RB10 smoothed out the bumps of the Malaysian track, magic carpet-like, was a sight Red Bull's rivals will not have liked to behold. Appearing to be very drivable, compliant to the drivers' inputs, high in rear-end downforce points and responsive to development, the RB10 has only one real shortcoming and it’s not within the team's control.
A whisker off pole position, Vettel's stunning Sepang Q3 lap stunned many but surprised no one. The German maestro really is proving just how good we all - even the doubters - know he is...
Renault's Energy F1-2014 is not quite where it should be on power right now, but rest assured the French company's Viry-Chatillon base is working flat-out to deliver a powertrain worthy of the RB10.
When – not if – they do, be afraid, be very afraid because we'll be back to the future all over again...
Source
1st April 2014
Truth is, Formula 1's finest never really went away.
As one ex-team principal, newly returned to F1, opined many seasons ago, there are no prizes for the winter championship! Ron Dennis's prophetic words were as true then as they are now.
Red Bull's well-documented pre-season troubles lulled many, bored with the complete and utter domination of the sport by the Milton Keynes-based crew, into a false sense of optimism, grinning with delight in anticipation of the four-times World Champions’ seemingly inevitable slide down the rankings.
Well, ye of little faith, grin no more. Those reporting their demise, it seems, were misinformed.
There has surely never been a Formula 1 team so utterly professional, driven and determined to get to the top and stay there as Dietrich Mateschitz's energy drink-fueled race team. Look at how they're constantly pushing the envelope and the authorities in pursuit of speed and success. Flexi-wings and off-throttle exhaust blowing are just two of their better-known rule-testers, and now the FIA's officially homologated fuel-flow meter is good enough for all teams except, of course, Red Bull.
Post-Jerez and the subsequent Bahrain testing debacle I, like many both within and without the paddock, wondered, wondered how the Red Bull crew would deal with such a setback to the defence of their crown in the technology-driven 21st century F1 world.
Sure there are many wise and experienced heads wearing the blue, red and silver apparel; men who've won, lost and won again. But it's also true that a lot of the guys working on the two RB10s have only ever known - until January 2014 - an ever-climbing upward curve and ultimately unrivalled success.
Relaxed. Calm. Cool. Collected. That's how the men in the Sepang International Circuit's garage No.1 and 2 looked to me during Free Practice 1 last Friday morning. No dramas. No panic. No sweat. Every one of them getting on with their duties, focused and busy, all pulling for the greater good. No tense, bitter and divisive intra-team-mate rivalry - for Red Bull - this season, either. Ever-smiling Australian Daniel Ricciardo isn't about to upset his new team or four-times champion Sebastian Vettel any time soon. A buoyant and upbeat mood abounds as a result.
Out on track there's a similar scene.
"Darren, I've always said if a racing car looks good, it'll be good," said 1976 world champion James Hunt to me way back in 1990. James of course was spot-on with his opinion, and would I'm sure approve of Adrian Newey's latest design aesthetic.
It not only looks good it appears to drive good, too. The way the RB10 smoothed out the bumps of the Malaysian track, magic carpet-like, was a sight Red Bull's rivals will not have liked to behold. Appearing to be very drivable, compliant to the drivers' inputs, high in rear-end downforce points and responsive to development, the RB10 has only one real shortcoming and it’s not within the team's control.
A whisker off pole position, Vettel's stunning Sepang Q3 lap stunned many but surprised no one. The German maestro really is proving just how good we all - even the doubters - know he is...
Renault's Energy F1-2014 is not quite where it should be on power right now, but rest assured the French company's Viry-Chatillon base is working flat-out to deliver a powertrain worthy of the RB10.
When – not if – they do, be afraid, be very afraid because we'll be back to the future all over again...
Source
AlienTaker
Whale Masseur
Not a bad weekend for me on the F1 scene i caught up to you guys and i'm 170th overall for the round not bad for someone that missed the whole first round 
Wyvern
Khaleesi
Source
Whilst admitting that the new regulations for 2014 are "unacceptable" need to be addressed, Bernie Ecclestone insists that championship leaders Mercedes will not suffer.
The Briton, who has always been against a majority of the new rules is under increasing pressure from teams, manufacturers and circuit bosses. While the original debate centred on noise, since then virtually the entire rule package has come under fire from some quarters, while others claim that there is nothing wrong.
As seen last year, when changes to the tyre compounds mid-season helped some teams but hurt others, any changes to the 2014 regulations could turn the championship on its head. Indeed, while some claim that the row is more about Ecclestone destabilising the sport thereby enabling him to drive down its value and make a bid to buy it, others are concerned that any change could drive manufacturers out and rip the sport apart.
As ever the teams are divided in opinion, some claiming the new regulations have no place in F1 whilst others insist the sport should be praised for its new green agenda.
As far as Ecclestone and the owners of the sport (not the fans) are concerned however it is all about money, which means bums on seats in front of TVs around the globe.
Speaking in Bahrain ahead of today's race - which looks likely to be a walk over for Mercedes, giving the German team its third win of the season - Ecclestone admitted that change is needed but that Mercedes must not lose out.
"We have to change, for sure," he told reporters. "I don't think the way things are at the moment are acceptable to the public. People buying tickets to come here, or go somewhere else, are expecting to see what Formula One used to be.
"What is important is that the teams know the problem, and the engine manufacturers know the problem, and they're trying to sort it," he added. Everybody is complaining, even Mercedes. They don't like people being unhappy.
"They can do something about the noise, and they need another 10 kilos of fuel or something," he admitted. "I think everybody will agree to that.
"These engines, without any doubt, are incredible," he continued. "The amount of power they produce from such a small amount of fuel. But I don't think that's Formula One business. They should do it in touring cars or something, but not in Formula One.
"Mercedes, without any doubt, have done a better job and they shouldn't be punished for doing a good job," he continued. "We shouldn't change the regulations to punish them. But let's see what happens when they all really start racing."
Whilst admitting that the new regulations for 2014 are "unacceptable" need to be addressed, Bernie Ecclestone insists that championship leaders Mercedes will not suffer.
The Briton, who has always been against a majority of the new rules is under increasing pressure from teams, manufacturers and circuit bosses. While the original debate centred on noise, since then virtually the entire rule package has come under fire from some quarters, while others claim that there is nothing wrong.
As seen last year, when changes to the tyre compounds mid-season helped some teams but hurt others, any changes to the 2014 regulations could turn the championship on its head. Indeed, while some claim that the row is more about Ecclestone destabilising the sport thereby enabling him to drive down its value and make a bid to buy it, others are concerned that any change could drive manufacturers out and rip the sport apart.
As ever the teams are divided in opinion, some claiming the new regulations have no place in F1 whilst others insist the sport should be praised for its new green agenda.
As far as Ecclestone and the owners of the sport (not the fans) are concerned however it is all about money, which means bums on seats in front of TVs around the globe.
Speaking in Bahrain ahead of today's race - which looks likely to be a walk over for Mercedes, giving the German team its third win of the season - Ecclestone admitted that change is needed but that Mercedes must not lose out.
"We have to change, for sure," he told reporters. "I don't think the way things are at the moment are acceptable to the public. People buying tickets to come here, or go somewhere else, are expecting to see what Formula One used to be.
"What is important is that the teams know the problem, and the engine manufacturers know the problem, and they're trying to sort it," he added. Everybody is complaining, even Mercedes. They don't like people being unhappy.
"They can do something about the noise, and they need another 10 kilos of fuel or something," he admitted. "I think everybody will agree to that.
"These engines, without any doubt, are incredible," he continued. "The amount of power they produce from such a small amount of fuel. But I don't think that's Formula One business. They should do it in touring cars or something, but not in Formula One.
"Mercedes, without any doubt, have done a better job and they shouldn't be punished for doing a good job," he continued. "We shouldn't change the regulations to punish them. But let's see what happens when they all really start racing."
Wyvern
Khaleesi
Source
Ru(i/n)ning the show
NEWS STORY
05/04/2014
If ever proof were needed of how the self-interest of the teams could destroy F1 as we know it, one need look no further than Friday's press conference.
Present were representatives of some of the biggest teams in the business and, as one would expect, there was little they could agree upon.
While Paddy Lowe, representing championship leaders and hot title favourite Mercedes, is happy with the 2014 rules, design guru Adrian Newey, representing four time successive champions Red Bull, currently sixth in the Constructors' Championship isn't.
While Rob Fernley, representing Force India, looking to be the best of the midfielders and running Mercedes power units, welcomes the new technology, Luigi Fraboni, representing Ferrari, whose last title win was in 2008 (constructors’), feels the new rules will drive away the fans.
Veteran Newey, who has designed championship winning cars for McLaren, Williams and Red Bull, was asked how he ranks the 2014 rules alongside those in place during previous championship winning years.
"That's a very complicated question," he admitted. "I guess the other obvious answer to that is probably whether you have a Mercedes engine, a Ferrari engine or a Renault engine will cloud your answer to it, in truth. Such is the nature of Formula One. My opinion of it is that from a technical aspect first of all you have to question whether... the whole thing behind. When you get into things like batteries then an electric car is only green if it gets its power from a green source. If it gets its power from a coal-fired power station then clearly it's not green at all.
"A hybrid car, which is effectively what the Formula One regulations are then a lot of energy goes into manufacturing those batteries and into the cars which is why they're so expensive. And whether that then gives you a negative or a positive carbon footprint or not depends on the duty cycle of the car - how many miles does it do, is it cruising along the motorway at constant speed or stop-starting in a city. So this concept that a hybrid car is automatically green is a gross simplification.
"On top of that there are other ways, if you're going to put that cost into a car, to make it fuel efficient. You can make it lighter, you can make it more aerodynamic, both of which are things that Formula One is good at. For instance the cars are 10 per cent heavier this year, a result, directly, of the hybrid content.
"So I think technically, to be perfectly honest, it's slightly questionable," he concluded. "From a sporting point of view, to me, efficiency, strategy etc, economy of driving, is very well placed for sportscars, which is a slightly different way of going racing. Formula One should be about excitement. It should be about man and machine performing at its maximum every single lap."
"I think as a business we ought to focus on the positives," argued veteran Pat Symonds, now with Williams, "and I think that the technology that we're employing in Formula One now is impressive. The road car industry - rightly or wrongly - has to hit CO2 per kilometre targets and those are very difficult targets to meet. And they will have to employ technologies such as we are using in Formula One. So we are moving things forward, we are more relevant than we used to be and I think that's very important.
"I think there was a great danger - and I mentioned this in one of these press conferences last year - that we would become irrelevant," he continued. "We would become the focus of gas-guzzling and not having social responsibility. And I think it was really important that we did move away from that. And you've got to remember that the seeds of this were sown many, many years ago, before the world economic recession hit which of course has had a bearing on things.
"Now we're in a good place," he insisted, "and I think as a business we should focus on the positives. I think many people from the UK will remember a guy called (Gerald) Ratner who basically killed his business by negative comments on it. I think we should be positive. We've done something good and we should tell the world about it."
"I was very interested in Pat's Ratner comment," added Paddy Lowe, "because we've seen a little bit of that going on and I don't understand it because I think there are so many positives around this formula. For an engine to deliver similar power to last year, with more than 30 percent less fuel consumption I think is just an incredible achievement and it's something we should celebrate.
"If at the same time, from our perspective, the racing is just as it was, I don't understand either the stories about economy drives etc," he admitted. "Formula One has always been a formula in which you had to manage your fuel through the race. For us, that's not different, so there are good stories around fuel saving whilst maintain the spectacle and I think we should be talking more about that."
At a time when Ferrari, which has numerous vetos in the running of the sport, is to hold talks with Bernie Ecclestone and Jean Todt, which are closed to the other teams, there is a widespread feeling that there is much more to this than meets the eye.
There has been talk that Ecclestone is deliberately talking down the sport in order to make a bid to buy it, whilst others feel the current administration has merely lost the plot.
Whilst battle lines are drawn up, be it teams, drivers, fans or the media, Adrian Newey summed up the situation best.
"It's a big subject and I guess ultimately the spectators and the television viewers are going to vote with their feet," said the Englishman.
And that is the bottom line, for no matter what the teams, drivers and media might say, all, of course, having their own agendas, ultimately it is the fans, especially those with their fingers hovering over their remote control, who will decide whether the new look F1 works or doesn't.
For despite all the talk of positivity, new technologies and social responsibilities, if the sport is given the thumbs down and gets hit where it hurts most (financially), the powers that be and the teams will have little choice but to listen.
As Mike Lawrence would say... follow the money.
Chris Balfe
Ru(i/n)ning the show
NEWS STORY
05/04/2014
If ever proof were needed of how the self-interest of the teams could destroy F1 as we know it, one need look no further than Friday's press conference.
Present were representatives of some of the biggest teams in the business and, as one would expect, there was little they could agree upon.
While Paddy Lowe, representing championship leaders and hot title favourite Mercedes, is happy with the 2014 rules, design guru Adrian Newey, representing four time successive champions Red Bull, currently sixth in the Constructors' Championship isn't.
While Rob Fernley, representing Force India, looking to be the best of the midfielders and running Mercedes power units, welcomes the new technology, Luigi Fraboni, representing Ferrari, whose last title win was in 2008 (constructors’), feels the new rules will drive away the fans.
Veteran Newey, who has designed championship winning cars for McLaren, Williams and Red Bull, was asked how he ranks the 2014 rules alongside those in place during previous championship winning years.
"That's a very complicated question," he admitted. "I guess the other obvious answer to that is probably whether you have a Mercedes engine, a Ferrari engine or a Renault engine will cloud your answer to it, in truth. Such is the nature of Formula One. My opinion of it is that from a technical aspect first of all you have to question whether... the whole thing behind. When you get into things like batteries then an electric car is only green if it gets its power from a green source. If it gets its power from a coal-fired power station then clearly it's not green at all.
"A hybrid car, which is effectively what the Formula One regulations are then a lot of energy goes into manufacturing those batteries and into the cars which is why they're so expensive. And whether that then gives you a negative or a positive carbon footprint or not depends on the duty cycle of the car - how many miles does it do, is it cruising along the motorway at constant speed or stop-starting in a city. So this concept that a hybrid car is automatically green is a gross simplification.
"On top of that there are other ways, if you're going to put that cost into a car, to make it fuel efficient. You can make it lighter, you can make it more aerodynamic, both of which are things that Formula One is good at. For instance the cars are 10 per cent heavier this year, a result, directly, of the hybrid content.
"So I think technically, to be perfectly honest, it's slightly questionable," he concluded. "From a sporting point of view, to me, efficiency, strategy etc, economy of driving, is very well placed for sportscars, which is a slightly different way of going racing. Formula One should be about excitement. It should be about man and machine performing at its maximum every single lap."
"I think as a business we ought to focus on the positives," argued veteran Pat Symonds, now with Williams, "and I think that the technology that we're employing in Formula One now is impressive. The road car industry - rightly or wrongly - has to hit CO2 per kilometre targets and those are very difficult targets to meet. And they will have to employ technologies such as we are using in Formula One. So we are moving things forward, we are more relevant than we used to be and I think that's very important.
"I think there was a great danger - and I mentioned this in one of these press conferences last year - that we would become irrelevant," he continued. "We would become the focus of gas-guzzling and not having social responsibility. And I think it was really important that we did move away from that. And you've got to remember that the seeds of this were sown many, many years ago, before the world economic recession hit which of course has had a bearing on things.
"Now we're in a good place," he insisted, "and I think as a business we should focus on the positives. I think many people from the UK will remember a guy called (Gerald) Ratner who basically killed his business by negative comments on it. I think we should be positive. We've done something good and we should tell the world about it."
"I was very interested in Pat's Ratner comment," added Paddy Lowe, "because we've seen a little bit of that going on and I don't understand it because I think there are so many positives around this formula. For an engine to deliver similar power to last year, with more than 30 percent less fuel consumption I think is just an incredible achievement and it's something we should celebrate.
"If at the same time, from our perspective, the racing is just as it was, I don't understand either the stories about economy drives etc," he admitted. "Formula One has always been a formula in which you had to manage your fuel through the race. For us, that's not different, so there are good stories around fuel saving whilst maintain the spectacle and I think we should be talking more about that."
At a time when Ferrari, which has numerous vetos in the running of the sport, is to hold talks with Bernie Ecclestone and Jean Todt, which are closed to the other teams, there is a widespread feeling that there is much more to this than meets the eye.
There has been talk that Ecclestone is deliberately talking down the sport in order to make a bid to buy it, whilst others feel the current administration has merely lost the plot.
Whilst battle lines are drawn up, be it teams, drivers, fans or the media, Adrian Newey summed up the situation best.
"It's a big subject and I guess ultimately the spectators and the television viewers are going to vote with their feet," said the Englishman.
And that is the bottom line, for no matter what the teams, drivers and media might say, all, of course, having their own agendas, ultimately it is the fans, especially those with their fingers hovering over their remote control, who will decide whether the new look F1 works or doesn't.
For despite all the talk of positivity, new technologies and social responsibilities, if the sport is given the thumbs down and gets hit where it hurts most (financially), the powers that be and the teams will have little choice but to listen.
As Mike Lawrence would say... follow the money.
Chris Balfe
Wyvern
Khaleesi
Ferrari Team Principal Stefano Domenicali has resigned just three races into the season.
It is understood the Italian will be replaced by Marco Mattiacci who is currently President & CEO at Ferrari North America having joined the Italian company from Jaguar in 2000.
Both men have risen through the ranks at Ferrari, albeit in totally different divisions, Domenicali being given the thankless task of heading the team in the wake of the golden era that saw it win countless titles with Michael Schumacher.
Educated at the Columbia Business School, Mattiacci (left) began working at Jaguar in 1989, when Ford merged with the company which it was to subsequently sell. Honing his skills in American management style, in 2000 he was headhunted by Ferrari.
Initially charged with setting up a sales network in South America, he was subsequently sent to the Middle East where he set up a distribution division. After spells in Russia and Finland he was charged with re-launching the Maserati brand in the United States after which he headed to Asia spending four years developing the market in China, recovering Japan from the hands of private importers, and developing the Pacific Rim. Eventually he was sent back to the United States as CEO for the Americas, the company's biggest division.
In 2012 Mattiacci was named Automotive Executive of the Year.
Domenicali, a graduate of Bologna University, joined Ferrari straight from university in 1991. Starting off as Financial Controller with the road car division and Race Director at Mugello, he progressed to becoming Financial Controller for Ferrari Gestione Sportiva, Human Resource Manage and Team Manager at Scuderia Ferrari in 1998. In 2003 he was appointed Team Manager and Sporting Director and finally Director of Gestione Sportiva in 2007. Ironically, it was recently announced that his contract had been extended.
Domenicali was confirmed as Director of Ferrari's F1 team in November 2007 just weeks after Kimi Raikkonen won the world championship, the last drivers' title won by the team, though it did claim the Constructors' Championship in 2008.
2009 saw the Maranello outfit slip to fourth in the standings, winning just one race, though (new recruit) Fernando Alonso came tantalisingly close to winning the 2010 championship in what was widely recognised as an uncompetitive car.
Indeed, in recent years the Spaniard has proved a canny signing, consistently delivering performances that belied the quality of the equipment presented to him.
The Italian team is currently fifth in the standings, having yet to secure a podium finish in the opening three races. Despite having one of the most successful and experienced driver line-ups, Alonso and teammate Kimi Raikkonen could do no better than finish ninth and tenth in the recent Bahrain Grand Prix, the Maranello outfit currently under pressure from Williams.
Chris Balfe
Source
It is understood the Italian will be replaced by Marco Mattiacci who is currently President & CEO at Ferrari North America having joined the Italian company from Jaguar in 2000.
Both men have risen through the ranks at Ferrari, albeit in totally different divisions, Domenicali being given the thankless task of heading the team in the wake of the golden era that saw it win countless titles with Michael Schumacher.
Educated at the Columbia Business School, Mattiacci (left) began working at Jaguar in 1989, when Ford merged with the company which it was to subsequently sell. Honing his skills in American management style, in 2000 he was headhunted by Ferrari.
Initially charged with setting up a sales network in South America, he was subsequently sent to the Middle East where he set up a distribution division. After spells in Russia and Finland he was charged with re-launching the Maserati brand in the United States after which he headed to Asia spending four years developing the market in China, recovering Japan from the hands of private importers, and developing the Pacific Rim. Eventually he was sent back to the United States as CEO for the Americas, the company's biggest division.
In 2012 Mattiacci was named Automotive Executive of the Year.
Domenicali, a graduate of Bologna University, joined Ferrari straight from university in 1991. Starting off as Financial Controller with the road car division and Race Director at Mugello, he progressed to becoming Financial Controller for Ferrari Gestione Sportiva, Human Resource Manage and Team Manager at Scuderia Ferrari in 1998. In 2003 he was appointed Team Manager and Sporting Director and finally Director of Gestione Sportiva in 2007. Ironically, it was recently announced that his contract had been extended.
Domenicali was confirmed as Director of Ferrari's F1 team in November 2007 just weeks after Kimi Raikkonen won the world championship, the last drivers' title won by the team, though it did claim the Constructors' Championship in 2008.
2009 saw the Maranello outfit slip to fourth in the standings, winning just one race, though (new recruit) Fernando Alonso came tantalisingly close to winning the 2010 championship in what was widely recognised as an uncompetitive car.
Indeed, in recent years the Spaniard has proved a canny signing, consistently delivering performances that belied the quality of the equipment presented to him.
The Italian team is currently fifth in the standings, having yet to secure a podium finish in the opening three races. Despite having one of the most successful and experienced driver line-ups, Alonso and teammate Kimi Raikkonen could do no better than finish ninth and tenth in the recent Bahrain Grand Prix, the Maranello outfit currently under pressure from Williams.
Chris Balfe
Source
Weasley
New member
not sure if its good news or bad.
AlienTaker
Whale Masseur
Weasley
New member
AlienTaker
Whale Masseur
i got to make picks but i lost out on the pole 
but i haven't even checked the results yet
but i haven't even checked the results yet