Vote or else the "Boers" will come back to power: Ramaphosa

[Fivel]

When did I say that everything was improving? Ask any 50-60 year old afrikaner who lived in SA during apartheid and they will tell you how much better the public services, infrastructure, economy and other things were. Just looking at something like SAPS or SADF should tell you. I never denied, and even said in my previous posts, how horrible non white citizens were treated.

There isn't a point of view here, there are facts.

during apartheid :
infrastructure, economy and many other things in the country were better - fact

after apartheid
go into your local police station ( if you can find it ) or your nearest public hospital and look down on the condition of the road you will be driving on - ought to tell you enough.

Ok let me agree with you that in traditional white areas, things are worse, but that really only accounts for a fraction of our country. To compare what happened pre and post apartheid is Iike comparing apples with oranges, but if that is the only point you are trying to make then you are correct in so far as white folk.

I would however encourage you to broaden your outlook, you are missing the fact that we are now a nation of 50 million plus folk who must be properly taken care of, not just 10 million. Things have improved for many, but the added burden of trying to provide for all is difficult.

The view of the 50 - 60 year old person (I'm not sure why you single out Afrikaners) is really out of date and hardly relevant to to any post apartheid discussion.

 

[to0kenZA]

I still don't see how our generation should be held accountable for apartheid though. We had absolutely nothing to do with it, and I have not been brought up that way to be racist, so to me, apartheid is something from the past that's needs to be remembered, but not to relive.

Somehow it still feels like I as a white person now must be obligated to feel guilty about it? And be punished? That's bs, I'm sorry. Our generation is supposed to be working together towards a better country, but the government is creating a huge divide between the people in this country and it's starting to really work on my nerves to a point where I actually just don't give a damn anymore.

 

[Murph]

I still don't see how our generation should be held accountable for apartheid though. We had absolutely nothing to do with it, and I have not been brought up that way to be racist, so to me, apartheid is something from the past that's needs to be remembered, but not to relive.

Somehow it still feels like I as a white person now must be obligated to feel guilty about it? And be punished? That's bs, I'm sorry. Our generation is supposed to be working together towards a better country, but the government is creating a huge divide between the people in this country and it's starting to really work on my nerves to a point where I actually just don't give a damn anymore.

Dude the way I see it, saying things like "apartheid is gone, just get over it" is a kak attitude to have (no saying you do it - i see it a lot), but I think the frustration boils down to the question of 'When will people start taking responsibility for themselves, their children (aside from using them for social grants), their communities and their future? Throwing your trash in the street and then wondering why where you live looks like a rubbish dump, is not about being poor, it's about being lazy. Burning down a school out of frustration is not about being poor, it's about being an asshole.
The Nats started this downward spiral, and the ANC is doing their best to make it even worse.
We pay taxes through our noses so that people shouldn't have to live in pigshit and squalor - not so that Minister A can enjoy a beluga caviar starter with his Pinot Noir.
And personally, at this point, they're sick of being victims as much as I am sick of being a scapegoat.

 

[to0kenZA]

Dude the way I see it, saying things like "apartheid is gone, just get over it" is a kak attitude to have (no saying you do it - i see it a lot), but I think the frustration boils down to the question of 'When will people start taking responsibility for themselves, their children (aside from using them for social grants), their communities and their future? Throwing your trash in the street and then wondering why where you live looks like a rubbish dump, is not about being poor, it's about being lazy. Burning down a school out of frustration is not about being poor, it's about being an asshole.
The Nats started this downward spiral, and the ANC is doing their best to make it even worse.
We pay taxes through our noses so that people shouldn't have to live in pigshit and squalor - not so that Minister A can enjoy a beluga caviar starter with his Pinot Noir.
And personally, at this point, they're sick of being victims as much as I am sick of being a scapegoat.

For sure dude, I agree with you one hundred percent. What I mean is, apartheid was a inhumane, inexcusable thing, sure, it's probably right up there with the holocaust or other similar human failures, but it's time we start working together in correcting our countries troublesome past. What's the use in pointing fingers and hating each other, especially in our generation where WE ourselves had NO part in apartheid?

The problem with this country's people is that we are all talk and no game. And we're all guilty of this. All we ever do is talk about the problems without actually coming up with solutions, and those poor souls that dare to mention a possible solution gets shot down because the gravy trainers don't want to change their comfortable situation.

 

[Lyt]

Ok let me agree with you that in traditional white areas, things are worse, but that really only accounts for a fraction of our country. To compare what happened pre and post apartheid is Iike comparing apples with oranges, but if that is the only point you are trying to make then you are correct in so far as white folk.

Yes, but not what I was saying. Let's say you have a mcdonalds and a burger king. Burger king is far superior to mcdonalds. Let's say burger king was the fast food chain during apartheid and mcdonalds is the fast food chain now. Now, as I've said burger king>mcdonalds , and that has nothing to do with who has access to it. The fact that it was better does not depend on if only black or only white has access to it. All I was trying to say, that simple. I don't know why you made such a big thing about it.

 

[Ike_009]

Yes, but not what I was saying. Let's say you have a mcdonalds and a burger king. Burger king is far superior to mcdonalds. Let's say burger king was the fast food chain during apartheid and mcdonalds is the fast food chain now. Now, as I've said burger king>mcdonalds , and that has nothing to do with who has access to it. The fact that it was better does not depend on if only black or only white has access to it. All I was trying to say, that simple. I don't know why you made such a big thing about it.

Nice idea but here is a counter view.

I went to a boarding school and the kitchen had to feed 600 students at every meal. The food wasn't very impressive but they had to feed 600 guys.
However I stayed in the one weekend when 90% of the school was away so they only had to feed 60 guys roughly. That weekend we had some of the best food I've ever had there. I asked the guy in charge why we couldn't get the same food more often and he said it's easier to make 60 meals with less staff than 600 meals with his normal staff capacity.

Now we can liken the staff level to SA's tax base, its arguable that post apartheid we have the same people paying tax as before and we have additional taxpayers but the people to be served has increased more than the increase in tax revenue. You can't really expect the same levels with less resources per capita. Comparing a government serving X people is not comparable to one serving Y.

 

[Tsar]

All I can say is this anc is way over their heads. They useless bunch of corrupted shits. And I can see this country going the way of the rest of africa.

 

[Neo]

This thread is simply bait for an argument. I'm just sticking to my plan to leave this country. I don't really care anymore about what happens. End.

 

[AlienTaker]

I just want to say something and that is that the ANC is actually forcing reverse apartheid, they are doing to the whites what was done to the blacks in aspects of work and equality.

And our country is degrading day by day look at what amount crime and murder and rape rose too since the anc took over by 200% if not more.

Corruption is the main reason our country is going down the drain and if the anc stays in power well all i can say is Welcome Zimbabwe nr2. some countries are already talking about putting sanctions on us again

and the racism tag is becoming a bit much seeing as the age of most voters these days in the 18-30 group didn't even live in the apartheid era yet they blame apartheid for 90% of the things wrong in this country.

 

[B1nary]

The ANC is communist our countries democratic system is being chocked to death my Marxism , I have a theory though that once the newer generation of young adults reaches a certain point the scale will tip, they are not as naive , are heavily westernized and more educated than their parents

They can see what is being done im sure

 

[Fivel]

Nice idea but here is a counter view.

I went to a boarding school and the kitchen had to feed 600 students at every meal. The food wasn't very impressive but they had to feed 600 guys.
However I stayed in the one weekend when 90% of the school was away so they only had to feed 60 guys roughly. That weekend we had some of the best food I've ever had there. I asked the guy in charge why we couldn't get the same food more often and he said it's easier to make 60 meals with less staff than 600 meals with his normal staff capacity.

Now we can liken the staff level to SA's tax base, its arguable that post apartheid we have the same people paying tax as before and we have additional taxpayers but the people to be served has increased more than the increase in tax revenue. You can't really expect the same levels with less resources per capita. Comparing a government serving X people is not comparable to one serving Y.

Probably one of your best posts ever! Very well put!

 

[Fivel]

I agree with this. Which is why I (along with any other South African that can see the inevitable future) am taking my family and emigrating the heck out of South Africa to a country where we have a chance again. Make no mistake, this country is going to burn, just like Zimbabwe and Nigeria. We have made a HUGE mistake to try and bring in 1st World ideas and tendencies to a country at the very tip of Africa. We have to accept the fact that Africa, as a whole, is not conducive to 1st World thinking. The ruling party in South Africa and those of other African countries have made that quite clear. "White" tendencies or "colonialism" is akin to what the "Western World" is doing.

That does not reflect what many businesses are doing ie investing in South Africa. To say that Africa is not conducive to 1st World thinking is just plain incorrect.

 

[AlienTaker]

Neo i'm with you on this one my friend i have 2 advantages counting for me i have fam in Holland and England and citizenship in both countries, only thing still keeping me here are my parents and in-laws due to the facts it's the "ouma and oupa's"

The future looks bleak for our lovely country and it's sad, unless there is a drastic change, and sorry to say this i'll prolly get blasted for it
But the first thing that should be re-instated in this country is the death penalty.

 

[Tsar]

Neo i'm with you on this one my friend i have 2 advantages counting for me i have fam in Holland and England and citizenship in both countries, only thing still keeping me here are my parents and in-laws due to the facts it's the "ouma and oupa's"

The future looks bleak for our lovely country and it's sad, unless there is a drastic change, and sorry to say this i'll prolly get blasted for it
But the first thing that should be re-instated in this country is the death penalty.

Luckly I have british citizenship as well. Or else I wouldn't be able to join the marines. This country is beyond repair in my opinion.

 

[Lyt]

Nice idea but here is a counter view.

I went to a boarding school and the kitchen had to feed 600 students at every meal. The food wasn't very impressive but they had to feed 600 guys.
However I stayed in the one weekend when 90% of the school was away so they only had to feed 60 guys roughly. That weekend we had some of the best food I've ever had there. I asked the guy in charge why we couldn't get the same food more often and he said it's easier to make 60 meals with less staff than 600 meals with his normal staff capacity.

Now we can liken the staff level to SA's tax base, its arguable that post apartheid we have the same people paying tax as before and we have additional taxpayers but the people to be served has increased more than the increase in tax revenue. You can't really expect the same levels with less resources per capita. Comparing a government serving X people is not comparable to one serving Y.

If there isn't enough tax revenue then why is it being squandered/stolen/mismanaged?

 

[Neo]

Threads like these blow balls.

 

[Ike_009]

If there isn't enough tax revenue then why is it being squandered/stolen/mismanaged?

That's really not part of the original point, including yours. Corruption has nothing to do with the government in charge but the individuals, that is unless you believe the ANCs official policy is to promote theft in which case the whole party would be in and we wouldn't see any corruption since every public official would cover the system. Hell Zumas house would be so buried in paper we wouldn't even know about it, never mind a public protector to write a report.

Still the apartheid government had corruption, America currently has corruption including Japan, Russia, England, brazil, Switzerland etc. corruption is an inherent risk in public services across the globe,however it is bad here and I believe that is a consequence of a new government taking over from an existing one without the chance to transfer skills and controls. America had similar issues after the American revolution.

I'm not defending the ANC though here and still would love nothing more than to see them fail. However I don't believe it's solely the ANCs fault for the issue we have today but a combination of multiple factors and your earlier comments were very narrow minded ( your last one didn't even make sense)

 

[Fivel]

I will never EVER be placed on a guilt trip because I'm white. Even less so will I allow my children to somehow "pay the price" for something that they had nothing to do with. I would much rather prefer watching this country burn to the ground whilst I'm laughing my head off with my whole family abroad. I'm flippen proud to be white and I thank God every day for blessing me with everything that comes along with it. Things like common sense; like knowing that it's NOT okay to rape a 4 month old baby and that Garlic and Beetroot somehow doesn't cure AIDS and cancer.

If you didn't want to turn this into a racist discussion, why bring up race.

Hmmm you forget there are a number of African countries who are very successful without 'white' intervention. We will never know whether or not your assertion that because whites were here first they were responsible for all the good to happen in South Africa, so it remains pure conjecture.

Why would you you feel guilty about being white, you are in control of your feelings, are you not.

Your last paragraph highlights the reason you should get out, laughing your head off, really. You sound like a typical expat who wants to justify why they left, well all the best you may find the grass is not greener on the other side.

Your whole post just reeks of white superiority, you are a racist and your views are bigoted!

 

[Neo]

Point made. White guy says something in defense, gets labeled as racist. You can take "your" country and shove it mate.

 

[Fivel]

I still smile at your double standards though. This thread was posted about a party leader who openly, racially insulted people, but because it was directed at white folks, I guess you're not that upset about it. How about the slogans from other parties inciting their followers to specifically kill white people? We're not allowed to be upset about that, right Fivel ol' chum?

Yeah, okay, call the white guy a racist.

Oh so it's ok what you post because others post similar, justification for your racist rethoric?

Where are you not allowed to be upset, no one said that, but we all have a choice as to how we respond. All you have demonstrated is that you are no better than the party leaders you refer to!

I don't judge you because you are white rather by what you post.