DRM - when is enough enough?

[HANDsolo]

If a DRM measure doesn't stop a game from being pirated, then how is it going to improve sales?

Say you have 10 people. 5 are legit and 5 are pirates.

If you release a game with no/minimal DRM, 5 will pirate it and 5 will buy it.
If you release a game with crazy DRM, 5 will pirate it and 4 will buy it and 1 person will ponder whether to pirate it or not play it at all.

 

[Stefan9]

DRM does not work. Developers and publishers need to concentrate on the genuine customer and try to sell more to him. Draconion drm schemes do not accomplish this. Those who pirate are not the genuine customer so rather focus on the people who want to support you by making their life easy.

I like the methods cd projekt employed with the witcher by giving everyone who bought the original the enhanced version for free. I also EA's new dlc method as well as giving everyone who bought the retail version free access to the digital version. Those methods create good will and make me happy to support them, draconian drm does the opposite.

 

[Isengard]

If a DRM measure doesn't stop a game from being pirated, then how is it going to improve sales?

Say you have 10 people. 5 are legit and 5 are pirates.

If you release a game with no/minimal DRM, 5 will pirate it and 5 will buy it.
If you release a game with crazy DRM, 5 will pirate it and 4 will buy it and 1 person will ponder whether to pirate it or not play it at all.

That's being rather generous. I'd say 3 decide they will pirate it, 1 will still buy it and 1 will just buy another game.

 

[larch]

The current DRM (blame) can be squarely laid at the feet of PC gamers. Piracy on the PC has reached insane levels and it looks like it wont decrease any time soon only increase. For years now the PC as a platform has become a crack house for the worlds pirates. So one extreme in this case high levels of piracy gets countered by another extreme DRM.

A simple equation would be less piracy = less strict DRM methods, its a rather simple observation but it seems this simple equation is rather hard for people to grasp. So when the majority of gamers pirate a title the developers institute heavy handed DRM to try and counter it.

But just like piracy being wrong heavy handed DRM is also wrong so one wrong gets countered by another wrong and so the cycle continues till piracy decreases these attempts at developers trying to protect their work will continue. And can you really blame them?

It is their lively hood and intellectual property they are trying to protect here do you blame the reaction or the cause? And sorry to say pirates dont need an education we have already seen how people like Ravengold can justify what they do.

They dont care if it is morally wrong they can go onto the internet and commit theft without any repercussions whatsoever the likely hood of getting caught downloading a game is almost none existent. Unlike walking into a store and stealing something of a shelf.

And will making games cheaper work? I doubt it. Why even pay for something when you can get it for totally free online no strings attached? PC gaming has been cheaper than console gaming since forever and yet its still the most pirated platform.

And when something gets DRM'd then gamers take it upon themselves to be the moral and justice crusaders of the interwebs and pirate the game to hell and backs as some twisted form of retribution, evident by games like spore, SIMS and COD MW. Giving developers even more ammunition.

The only way to solve this issue is by attacking the cause aka piracy after that then you can look at less strict DRM methods. Stamping out piracy with an iron fist be more strick on pirates and institute hard time and not just a fine and slap on the wrist.

But its too late now the flood gates are open and its open season for pirates on the PC platform.

 

[Strifehart]

But its too late now the flood gates are open and its open season for pirates on the PC platform.

If I was a dev I'd just stop making games for the platform. When something is so desperately ill with a disease it is sometimes better to just euthanize it and get it over wit.

 

[Skurm]

This is already happening. They may make other excuses, but no Alan Wake for PC, no Dead Space 2 for PC...my guess is we'll start seeing a lot more of this.

I know that I tend to buy games for Xbox first, now, and one of the main reasons for doing so is the hassle free nature of console gaming - no lengthy installation times, no control issues, no worries about whether it will work or not/run well/ etc. No drm flaming-hoops to jump through is yet another reason to jump ship for many. I think as a platform for independant/small-studio gaming, the PC will remain a force. But it's days as a bonafide triple-a gaming platform are drawing to a close, I believe, in no small part due to the combined and enduring problem of both piracy and drm.

 

[shadowfox]

I'll reiterate what I said earlier.

As for the solution to piracy? I don't think there really is one. There will always be people who want something for little to no effort, or failing that, free. What they do need to do is to stop treating legit customers like criminals.

Piracy is not going to go away. Face it.

And larch - blaming PC gamers for piracy is short-sighted at the very best. I know for a fact other platforms also have piracy problems - even if not on the same scale. Chipped Playstation anyone?

And you also make a rather bold claim about "the majority of gamers pirate a title ...". Really? Can you prove that? Myself, I believe that the majority of gamers will actually buy their titles.

And when something gets DRM'd then gamers take it upon themselves to be the moral and justice crusaders of the interwebs and pirate the game to hell and backs as some twisted form of retribution, evident by games like spore, SIMS and COD MW. Giving developers even more ammunition.

Another statement I can't agree with in its entirety. What the gaming community gets up in arms about is not the DRM itself, but rather the more draconian DRM methods being employed by some publishers - and note I say publishers ... not developers. Whether the game sells 20 copies instead of 10 - the guys who spent their hours coding and designing won't see an extra cent. The only people who benefit are the publishing houses' executives - but that is an entirely different argument.

I'm not sure why COD MW got mentioned in your list. I didn't have any issue with COD's DRM - all they required was a serial key. If, however, you are referring to MW2 - the gamers' issues had little to do with DRM, but rather to IW's move to remove dedicated server support from the game. Thereby removing the ability to LAN the game.

And will making games cheaper work? I doubt it. Why even pay for something when you can get it for totally free online no strings attached? PC gaming has been cheaper than console gaming since forever and yet its still the most pirated platform.

There you are right. It won't stop pirates ... and here again I refer to my earlier statement quoted above. However; expensive prices to deter people from buying. MW2 is a good example. If the game had gone for the normal price of R350 - I would have bought it. But I'm not paying R500. So they lost out on a sale. Simple economics ready - 2 x R350 = R700. 1 x R500 = R500. IW lost out. I'll make do without the game - I rather bought myself a copy of Dragon Age, which was going at R350. EA wins - IW loses.

 

[larch]

And larch - blaming PC gamers for piracy is short-sighted at the very best. I know for a fact other platforms also have piracy problems - even if not on the same scale. Chipped Playstation anyone?

Short sighted? I have attended most of the big LAN`s in the gauteng area I wont give any names but jump on the local DC++ hub and what do you find? Gigabytes and gigabytes of pirated games. People walking around with folders and folders of copy games and software. Go to any local university network and see what is being shared over the network. Go to any guys PC who is lanning and check his DVD-driver for the orginal disk of te game he is playing. I can tell you now 99% of people wont have anything in their drive. And the facts and figures speak for themselfs:

Top Pirated games for 2008:

http://torrentfreak.com/top-10-most-pirated-games-of-2008-081204/

Top Pirated games for 2009:

http://torrentfreak.com/the-most-pirated-games-of-2009-091227/

And these figures are from a single torrent website and does not even include the millions of other torrent websites out there.

And you also make a rather bold claim about "the majority of gamers pirate a title ...". Really? Can you prove that? Myself, I believe that the majority of gamers will actually buy their titles.

If most gamers bought their games why is the levels of piracy on the PC so high? And if most PC gamers bought their PC games why would there be a need for DRM in the first place?

Another statement I can't agree with in its entirety. What the gaming community gets up in arms about is not the DRM itself, but rather the more draconian DRM methods being employed by some publishers - and note I say publishers ... not developers.

No one will take the PC gaming comunity seriously anymore because they will complain at the drop of a hat whenever they dont get what they want ea dedicated servers, dumped down console ports or DRM. And when they dont get what they want they throw their toys out of the cot and maturity with it. And just to spite the developers they will pirate a game even more. Shooting themselfs in the other foot.

Whether the game sells 20 copies instead of 10 - the guys who spent their hours coding and designing won't see an extra cent. The only people who benefit are the publishing houses' executives - but that is an entirely different argument..

And yet its upto the popularity of the game and publishing houses if a game gets a follow up or not. Without these so called "greedy" publishers we wouldnt have any games to play.

I'm not sure why COD MW got mentioned in your list. I didn't have any issue with COD's DRM - all they required was a serial key. If, however, you are referring to MW2 - the gamers' issues had little to do with DRM, but rather to IW's move to remove dedicated server support from the game. Thereby removing the ability to LAN the game.

Yes the infamouse no dedicated server issue and what do gamers do? Pirated it to hell and back showing then how un-happy they are.

 

[larch]

In the end piracy has become a social acceptible norm in society because we see our peers and people around us do it then we do it too. Just like skimming from the top seems to be a norm for our current goverment. And then we try and justify it in some form of manner because we feel guilty about actually committing theft.

 

[shadowfox]

Top Pirated games for 2008:

http://torrentfreak.com/top-10-most-pirated-games-of-2008-081204/

Top Pirated games for 2009:

http://torrentfreak.com/the-most-pirated-games-of-2009-091227/

And these figures are from a single torrent website and does not even include the millions of other torrent websites out there.

I'm just saying you shouldn't solely blame PC gamers. It affects every platform.

Your first link for instance, shows only the top 10 PC Games pirated - whereas the second link shows the figures for other platforms. If you look at those figures I'm sure you can agree that the problem isn't limited to PCs only. The bigger part of the problem certainly - but not the only one.

Just look at the Wii and 360 figures ... their top downloads would probably push into the overall top 10 across all platforms.

People walking around with folders and folders of copy games and software. Go to any local university network and see what is being shared over the network. Go to any guys PC who is lanning and check his DVD-driver for the orginal disk of te game he is playing. I can tell you now 99% of people wont have anything in their drive. And the facts and figures speak for themselves:

Again - lanners and university students do not represent the majority of gamers. The Organised Chaos LAN in Cape Town hosts up to 840 players - yet these represent the mere fraction of active gamers in Cape Town. And you won't find disks in their drives, simply because I haven't come across a game yet that requires a disk to play multiplayer. My copy of COD4 is legal - but my disk stays at home when I go to the LAN.

I also know for a fact that a number of the players there have legal copies of their games on their machines. The majority of them even have legal copies of their OS on their machines - even though you can find it quite freely amongst the shares.

 

[larch]

I'm just saying you shouldn't solely blame PC gamers. It affects every platform.

Yes it affects every platform but currently the PC platform is the platform that is the biggest culprit. Can you blame console gamers for the current DRM situation on the PC? No. Can you blame Console gamers for high levels of piracy on the PC? No. Can you blame developers for wanting to protect their work? No. It all comes back to people who pirate games. Deny the cause and you will never find the cure.

Your first link for instance, shows only the top 10 PC Games pirated - whereas the second link shows the figures for other platforms. If you look at those figures I'm sure you can agree that the problem isn't limited to PCs only. The bigger part of the problem certainly - but not the only one.

Yes its not limited to the PC but its massively out of hand on the PC platform and overshadows everything else:

It's no wonder that Epic Games is dumping PC games for the greener pastures of console gaming: piracy rates for the U.S. market alone are hovering around 80%!

In the post, Fitch attacked pirates, the PC software security model and everything in between. In Europe, he said, piracy rates approach 90%. In Asia, those figures are "off the charts."

http://www.gamepro.com/article/news/165488/hard-times-pc-game-piracy-in-us-estimated-at-75-80/

And after reading that can you blame developers and publishers for wanting to impliment DRM?

Just look at the Wii and 360 figures ... their top downloads would probably push into the overall top 10 across all platforms.]

No one is saying there isnt any piracy on consoles but its not even close to the levels of the PC.

Again - lanners and university students do not represent the majority of gamers. The Organised Chaos LAN in Cape Town hosts up to 840 players - yet these represent the mere fraction of active gamers in Cape Town. And you won't find disks in their drives, simply because I haven't come across a game yet that requires a disk to play multiplayer. My copy of COD4 is legal - but my disk stays at home when I go to the LAN.]

I beg to differ people like students and LANNERS are the target market of the gaming industry you just have to look at the average age of any gamer to confirm that. Granted some games dont require a CD-KEY but what what about the people who show up these LAN and scream they need a game as they copy and crack it and join in.

 

[shadowfox]

Yes it affects every platform but currently the PC platform is the platform that is the biggest culprit. Can you blame console gamers for the current DRM situation on the PC? No. Can you blame Console gamers for high levels of piracy on the PC? No. Can you blame developers for wanting to protect their work? No. It all comes back to people who pirate games. Deny the cause and you will never find the cure.

Yes its not limited to the PC but its massively out of hand on the PC platform and overshadows everything else:

I have absolutely never denied the cause. I'm saying it now, and I will keep saying it - PC Gamers are not the sole culprits. Like you said yourself - "it all comes back to the people who pirate games." But yes .... the PC arena dominates - and makes things easier.

I beg to differ people like students and LANNERS are the target market of the gaming industry you just have to look at the average age of any gamer to confirm that. Granted some games dont require a CD-KEY but what what about the people who show up these LAN and scream they need a game as they copy and crack it and join in.

Students? Really?

These figures are from the USA - but they're probably representative:

1. The average game player is 35 years old and has been playing games for 12 years.
2. The average age of the most frequent game purchaser is 39 years old.
3. Forty percent of all game players are women. In fact, women over the age of 18 represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (34 percent) than boys age 17 or younger (18 percent).
3. In 2009, 25 percent of Americans over the age of 50 play video games, an increase from nine percent in 1999.

Source: http://www.theesa.com/facts/index.asp

If they're specifically only targeting students they know less about business than I think they do. And you're ignoring what I'm saying. I'm fairly sure a lot of the guys at that LAN are playing pirated copies, but just as surely I know that a fairly large group of them don't. Again - also, you're ignoring the fact that this particular LAN represents about 800-odd people - how many thousands, if not tens of thousands of gamers live in the Cape Town metro alone?

 

[larch]

I have absolutely never denied the cause. I'm saying it now, and I will keep saying it - PC Gamers are not the sole culprits. Like you said yourself - "it all comes back to the people who pirate games." But yes .... the PC arena dominates - and makes things easier.

And that is my point the reason why all this is happening is not because of the developers or greedy publishers but of the pirates. If anyone should get the blame for this its the people who pirate software. You cant blame anyone for trying to protect intelectual property. Yes the measures are extreme but what do you do to counter extreme amounts of piracy?

Students? Really?

These figures are from the USA - but they're probably representative:
Source: http://www.theesa.com/facts/index.asp

Granted intresting figures but thats the average age of a gamer but it does not show the target market for gamers. But I will take it.

If they're specifically only targeting students they know less about business than I think they do. And you're ignoring what I'm saying. I'm fairly sure a lot of the guys at that LAN are playing pirated copies, but just as surely I know that a fairly large group of them don't. Again - also, you're ignoring the fact that this particular LAN represents about 800-odd people - how many thousands, if not tens of thousands of gamers live in the Cape Town metro alone?

I am not saying all gamers pirates, but what I am saying is that LAN events are a hub for piracy and a good indicator of what is happening on the platform.

 

[Necuno]

I am not saying all gamers pirates, but what I am saying is that LAN events are a hub for piracy and a good indicator of what is happening on the platform.

like dc++ was "banned" from mayhem... well that was so a few years back.

 

[larch]

like dc++ was "banned" from mayhem... well that was so a few years back.

Yes because it used to kill a gigabit network and make life hell for those trying to play games. And that has to make you wonder how much copying goes on that you can kill a gigabit network? And lets be honest it wont stop them they will jsut find different methods of copying games. And what makes me wonder even further why the event organisers allow things like this to continue...

 

[Azimuth]

I'd like to direct everyone to this excellent article on piracy, supplied by TPex in the comments section under the article. It's a substantial read, but I challenge every one of you to read it in its entirety before posting here again.

 

[Necuno]

Koroush Ghazi is tpex ?

 

[Azimuth]

Um, no. TPex originally pasted the link.

 

[Necuno]

<whine> single page version would have been nice without flipping between 10 pages </whine>

 

[larch]

I think I am going to start bitching about the amount of threads bitching about DRM.