Skyrim Thread
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Graal
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Oblivion was actually a major step up from Morrowind, the most prominent changes being AI, combat, magic and graphics and the ease with which the game could be modified. At its released people considered it to be the herald of the next-gen gaming era.
Skyrim didn't come close to that. It's just another RPG. It plays like Oblivion with an overhaul mod. What's even worse, most of the 'new' features are features we've seen in Oblivion mods years before Skyrim. Blacksmithing, dual wielding, relationships with NPCs, lycanthropy amongst others have all been seen before.
The thing that irks me the most was that they promised a new engine, but gave us a modified gamebryo engine. Gamebryo lies at the heart of a great deal of my issues with Skyrim. It's archaic and severly limiting in what can be done with it. I mean, it uses a stealth system that dates all the way back to Morrowind. It's one of the weaker stealth systems out there. It's also at the heart of the AI issues, and the reason why 10 years after Morrowind we're still seeing enemies get stuck on little pieces of geometry, just like in Morrowind.
What pisses me off even more is that the next Fallout, which we can probably expect in the next 1 or 2 years will also be based on Gamebryo (or Creation as they've now dubbed it). The next Elder Scrolls will probably use it as well.
Another great problem is that your actions have almost zero bearing on the rest of the world. As someone else told me, Skyrim doesn't so much make you feel part of an elaborate tapestry as it makes you feel like you're scribbling with your crayolas on top of that tapestry.
For me, Skyrim was the last breath in a beloved franchise. Unless Bethesda gets their shit together, I won't be buying the next Elderscrolls or Fallout.
Skyrim didn't come close to that. It's just another RPG. It plays like Oblivion with an overhaul mod. What's even worse, most of the 'new' features are features we've seen in Oblivion mods years before Skyrim. Blacksmithing, dual wielding, relationships with NPCs, lycanthropy amongst others have all been seen before.
The thing that irks me the most was that they promised a new engine, but gave us a modified gamebryo engine. Gamebryo lies at the heart of a great deal of my issues with Skyrim. It's archaic and severly limiting in what can be done with it. I mean, it uses a stealth system that dates all the way back to Morrowind. It's one of the weaker stealth systems out there. It's also at the heart of the AI issues, and the reason why 10 years after Morrowind we're still seeing enemies get stuck on little pieces of geometry, just like in Morrowind.
What pisses me off even more is that the next Fallout, which we can probably expect in the next 1 or 2 years will also be based on Gamebryo (or Creation as they've now dubbed it). The next Elder Scrolls will probably use it as well.
Another great problem is that your actions have almost zero bearing on the rest of the world. As someone else told me, Skyrim doesn't so much make you feel part of an elaborate tapestry as it makes you feel like you're scribbling with your crayolas on top of that tapestry.
For me, Skyrim was the last breath in a beloved franchise. Unless Bethesda gets their shit together, I won't be buying the next Elderscrolls or Fallout.
Avatar
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The magic was a major step back with Oblivion, IMO, and it was modified in almost exactly the same way as Morrowind. It just needed more modification due to the horrible leveling of creatures. Oblivion needed more mods to make it playable than Morrowind, and that's a step back, IMO. Also, it was considered to be the herald of next-gen gaming since there actually was a next-gen to work with. It was released as one of the first Xbox 360 and PS3 games, the same tech Skyrim had to work with... Were we looking for next-gen gaming on last-gen hardware?
By this argument many other games would be culprit as well. Take GTA4, for instance, or TF2: We've seen all the pieces of gameplay in mods and other games before.. but we didn't care, because it's the way it's put together that matters. It's more than the sum of the parts. Also, I disagree that it plays like Oblivion. It feels different. It feels less stifled and smoother and more rewarding than Oblivion ever did, save for the first time you set foot outside of the prison. It feels involved, like Morrowind did, whereas Oblivion's world quickly forgot about you.
Seriously? Severely limiting? A) You just praised how mod-able Oblivion was, and B) go tell that to Civ 4 and Wheel of Fortune. It's a massively versatile engine, used in all sorts of genres. The stealth system is not part of the engine, so I don't know how that connect with your gripes with it. Also, you just noted the change in AI from Morrowind to Oblivion. That's because it was completely rewritten, from scratch, to much acclaim. It was one of the major advertising points for Oblivion when it came out. AI issues that you've seen in Morrowind, are thus quite unlikely to have propagated to Oblivion and Skyrim, and are most likely your imagination.
Meh. I'll live. I'll buy them as well.
Compared to Oblivion? In Oblivion no action of mine had any bearing on the world. Whatsoever. Even the story made me feel like I was watching a play, rather than taking part; not so in Skyrim and Morrowind.
Millions of people disagree with you, if we look at the sales figures. Sure, the games have become a tad more action oriented, but Skyrim still has the core RPG system at heart, the same one I loved in Morrowind. The same one that will convince me to buy the next Fallout and Elder Scrolls game. Or almost anything else that Bethesda might develop.
tl:dr I don't agree with Graal.
MOnk
New member
I understand your gripes and I'm not saying they are unreasonable I'm just saying that you shouldn't have expected such a drastic change. I got really frustrated with Oblivion but I'm really enjoying Skyrim and for me it's tweaked and improved things in a good way. Just like every other sequel released on the same console generation you're never really going to get something dramatically different, it's always going to be mostly a gentle evolution.
As far as the Creation Engine goes, yeah I was disappointed to see a lot of legacy Gamebryo aspects still prevalent.
As far as the Creation Engine goes, yeah I was disappointed to see a lot of legacy Gamebryo aspects still prevalent.
Graal
New member
The magic was a major step back with Oblivion, IMO, and it was modified in almost exactly the same way as Morrowind. It just needed more modification due to the horrible leveling of creatures. Oblivion needed more mods to make it playable than Morrowind, and that's a step back, IMO. Also, it was considered to be the herald of next-gen gaming since there actually was a next-gen to work with. It was released as one of the first Xbox 360 and PS3 games, the same tech Skyrim had to work with... Were we looking for next-gen gaming on last-gen hardware?
You do realize that Battlefield 3 uses next gen tech on last-gen hardware, right? It just takes a bit of spit and polish.
And in my opinion Skyrim's parts weren't put together well. At all. The difference between GTA4, TF2 and Skyrim is that the former were both innovative. They incorporated a lot of things from other games, but still managed to create an unique experience. Skyrim feels generic.
And I disagree with you. Skyrim feels like a slightly streamlined Oblivion to me. The combat is much the same, as is the powermoves. The only thing that really changes is spells and dualwielding.
So you dispute that in Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim enemies get caught on the littlest pieces of geometry and get stuck there so you can stick them full of arrows? Or even worse, if you shoot them in the face with an arrow and hide quickly after a while they say "Must be imagining things" while there's 'OMFG AN ARROW IN MY EYE'! There's some major AI issues in all three games.
In Oblivion you actually had more bearing on the world than in Skyrim. In Oblivion your actions changed the game world slightly. After the Oblivion crisis, no more Oblivion gates. A giant hole in the temple of the One. A statue erected in your honor.
What do you get after completing Skyrim's main quest? A few people clapping hands and then you return home, with everybody forgetting about you as soon as possible. For all intents and purposes, the game world is the exact same, except now you no longer have a main quest to follow. Even the dragons keep showing up.
There is also just about zero choice and consequence in the game. You get a handful of choices throughout the game which really doesn't impact the game much at all.
Oblivion wasn't much better, but this released in 2011. It's to be expected that you make a difference in a game world in this day and age. A game world shouldn't remain static throughout.
Yeah, millions of people also bought Far Cry 2. Guess just because it sold well it means it's good.
Actually, you should check how many sites have been taking second looks at Skyrim now that it's been out a few months. A lot of the bigger sites have people totally panning the game for its shortcomings. Most of the
in the beginning was just because it was a new game that everyone was anticipating. Games like that only get 'real' reviews a few months after release.Thing is, Skyrim wasn't a bad game, it just wasn't a particularly good game either. It's decidedly average, and that's a shame because both Morrowind and Oblivion were considered to be stellar games when they released. They were almost unrivaled. Skyrim, unfortunately, can be rivaled by just about any RPG released recently. Hell, Kingdoms of Amalur actually puts Skyrim to shame.
Maplassie
AK47 Pew Pew
IMHO Morrowind is and probably will be the best Elder Scrolls game ever made. Morrowind to me has the most immersive environment, from the Ash storms, to the cities and the coasts themselves, the people that inhabit the land, the creatures etc. Sure it had LOTS of technical issues, retarted AI etc, It's just awesomely pulled off. Well, apart from the Cliff racers that is. Damn bastiches.
To me, doing the Nerevarine quest is the best part of any Elder Scrolls game out there. No other Elder scrolls game gave me that feeling of accomplishment that I actually did something awesome. I actually felt like I became this awesome character, and just completed this epic quest.
In Oblivion and Skyrim when you become guild master or finish a quest tree, it's usually met with the "awesome" reward of a piece of jewellery, a weapon or a piece of armour and that's it. No real recognition of any sorts. Like it means nothing or changes nothing to the world. For example, I became the guild master of the thieves guild, and when I walk past thieves guild members in the ragged flagon I am still met with the same greetings and AI remarks that I did when I was still a "noob" there. It's all just so dumbed down, and that is a big part of why the games become so boring that quickly. Morrowind had it right in this regard, and actually made you feel like what you were doing actually made a difference. Not that big, not nearly as big as it should, but it was there.
The two other things that basically kill Oblivion and Skyrim are Quick Travel and Map Markers. Morrowind didn't have these and it made exploring and carefully reading your assignments so much more rewarding. Sure with Oblivion and Skyrim you can disable them with mods (I sure did in both games) But the way most quests are designed, it relies to heavily on having them there.
This really dumbs down the experience if you ask me, as you know exactly where to go at all times, and just about nothing is left to imagination and exploring. Just follow the arrow, do your task and move on. Same with 99% of the quests. Doing an average quest in Skyrim is the equivalent of a flying a unicorn over a triple rainbow next to a chocolate covered river while kids are making sandcastles made out of mountains of crushed Oreos next to it, as opposed to some of the quests Morrowind had to offer. Some of them were excruciatingly hard and complex, and involved a lot of reading exploring and puzzle solving etc.
IF Only they would ditch Gamebryo and it's horrible AI and other irritations. I love shooting an NPC in the head with an arrow and he just walks on, or tries to look for me for 10 seconds and continues patrolling with a huge arrow sticking out of his head. Or You kill someone in plain sight and the NPC's just walk by as if nothing happened. Or you come across a group of imperial solders fighting stormcloaks. After the battle they just seethe their weapons and walk away. NO feelings or remorse, no crying or helping fallen comrades, just walk away :/
To me, doing the Nerevarine quest is the best part of any Elder Scrolls game out there. No other Elder scrolls game gave me that feeling of accomplishment that I actually did something awesome. I actually felt like I became this awesome character, and just completed this epic quest.
In Oblivion and Skyrim when you become guild master or finish a quest tree, it's usually met with the "awesome" reward of a piece of jewellery, a weapon or a piece of armour and that's it. No real recognition of any sorts. Like it means nothing or changes nothing to the world. For example, I became the guild master of the thieves guild, and when I walk past thieves guild members in the ragged flagon I am still met with the same greetings and AI remarks that I did when I was still a "noob" there. It's all just so dumbed down, and that is a big part of why the games become so boring that quickly. Morrowind had it right in this regard, and actually made you feel like what you were doing actually made a difference. Not that big, not nearly as big as it should, but it was there.
The two other things that basically kill Oblivion and Skyrim are Quick Travel and Map Markers. Morrowind didn't have these and it made exploring and carefully reading your assignments so much more rewarding. Sure with Oblivion and Skyrim you can disable them with mods (I sure did in both games) But the way most quests are designed, it relies to heavily on having them there.
This really dumbs down the experience if you ask me, as you know exactly where to go at all times, and just about nothing is left to imagination and exploring. Just follow the arrow, do your task and move on. Same with 99% of the quests. Doing an average quest in Skyrim is the equivalent of a flying a unicorn over a triple rainbow next to a chocolate covered river while kids are making sandcastles made out of mountains of crushed Oreos next to it, as opposed to some of the quests Morrowind had to offer. Some of them were excruciatingly hard and complex, and involved a lot of reading exploring and puzzle solving etc.
IF Only they would ditch Gamebryo and it's horrible AI and other irritations. I love shooting an NPC in the head with an arrow and he just walks on, or tries to look for me for 10 seconds and continues patrolling with a huge arrow sticking out of his head. Or You kill someone in plain sight and the NPC's just walk by as if nothing happened. Or you come across a group of imperial solders fighting stormcloaks. After the battle they just seethe their weapons and walk away. NO feelings or remorse, no crying or helping fallen comrades, just walk away :/
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hideinlight
New member
Well I made a sneaking mod, think commandos/thief. To successfully get behind someone you need to stay out of their LOS/Binocular vision. You can also ambush someone from the side now, which wasn't possible before because NPC's had 190 vision.
Sneak in Vanilla for me broke around lvl20 where you could literally sneak up to someone in a well lit area and stand right in front of them without being detected. This mod should last you the whole game even with sneak and perks maxed out.
http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=8719
Sneak in Vanilla for me broke around lvl20 where you could literally sneak up to someone in a well lit area and stand right in front of them without being detected. This mod should last you the whole game even with sneak and perks maxed out.
http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=8719
Graal, you sound like you are looking for reasons to complain. No one is forcing you to like Skyrim, and that is fine. You have your opinion about it and that's cool. However, the way you are going on about it is typical circle jerk thinking. Get a hold of yourself man. Jeez.
Graal
New member
Ionflux, you sound like you just don't like when other people don't like the games you do. My opinion isn't forcing you to dislike Skyrim. We each have our opinion about it and that's cool. However, the way you are going on about it is typical 'waaah he no likey my favorite gamey' thinking. Get a hold of yourself man. Jeez.
We were merely having a discussion on my opinion of the game. Two weeks ago, I might add. Now you come in and say 'you have your opinion about it and that's cool', and in the sentence just after it you proceed to insult my opinion. If anyone should get a grip, it should be you.
Not everyone is going to like the same games you do. Get over it. Also, how about actually contributing to the discussion instead of just spewing butthurt nonsense because you're offended someone doesn't like the same game you like?
We were merely having a discussion on my opinion of the game. Two weeks ago, I might add. Now you come in and say 'you have your opinion about it and that's cool', and in the sentence just after it you proceed to insult my opinion. If anyone should get a grip, it should be you.
Not everyone is going to like the same games you do. Get over it. Also, how about actually contributing to the discussion instead of just spewing butthurt nonsense because you're offended someone doesn't like the same game you like?
w/e Graal, I could ask you the same thing. Instead of complaining, hows about contributing to the discussion. I honestly couldn't give two shits about your opinion on the subject, but understand this. Sometimes, just sometimes, people like me go on forums to read interesting stuff about a certain subject. I'd prefer not to read 5 pages on your opinion.
MOnk
New member
I don't leave home without my SkyUI!!!
Graal
New member
The skip past it, you moron. What, are you forced to read it because it's there?
This thread is here for the discussion of a game. In a discussion thread, people are going to discuss what they like and dislike about the game. If you don't like those parts, don't read those parts. Is that a difficult concept for you to wrap your head around?
Either you're really butthurt because there are people who don't like a game you do, or you're just complaining for the sake of complaining. People shouldn't have certain discussions simply because you don't want to read those discussions? Get real man. You've got some pathetic reasoning.
This thread is here for the discussion of a game. In a discussion thread, people are going to discuss what they like and dislike about the game. If you don't like those parts, don't read those parts. Is that a difficult concept for you to wrap your head around?
Either you're really butthurt because there are people who don't like a game you do, or you're just complaining for the sake of complaining. People shouldn't have certain discussions simply because you don't want to read those discussions? Get real man. You've got some pathetic reasoning.
