What MMOs Need

[Shamrock]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I love RPGs, so when they started coming out with all the MMO-RPG addaptions, I was pretty thrilled to get onboard. I started with RuneScape ( ) and moved on to games like GuildWars, then a long WoW stint. I tried finding other MMOs, even tried a couple MMOFPSes, and you know what MMOs seem to do every time? Grind.

I honestly cannot fathom why any game would make you grind through the most obscenely boring beginnings in hopes that the late-game would be fun.

I still love World of Warcraft, but whenever I come back to it, the hardest thing for me is to get past the horrible first 20-30 levels before it becomes fun or even playable. Even World of Tanks has an aspect of it -- not sure if anyone's played it, I hated it.

The thing is, I'd like to see an MMO with no leveling system. The build up to being powerful and OP is fun, yes, but it's also incredibly boring. Of course new players need it to slowly get a feel for the game, but I mean, it takes what, three hours to get to level 15 in WoW? And up until that you're mindlessly pressing 1 while you click to target some helpless farm animal. FUN FUN FUN!

No but seriously. There's way too much grind in online games. Quests which have nothing to do with storyline, killing ten of one enemy -- which, a few times is fine, but over your expected several DAYS of playing? It's actually kind of amazing that I kept playing after my first two characters.

And this applies to a bunch of other games. Every other MMO I try to get into. It's kind of exciting to explore the new/interesting world, but let's not forget that a lot of MMOs look like...all the ones before it. And past that, once you're not excited anymore, you're killing boars.

What are your thoughts on this? I figured I'd post it up for dicussion since it really bothers me. The social aspect of MMOs is what's fun, so how about a game where you can start, create a party and do a dungeon run? You gear up, yeah, and good players are rewarded with better benefits, but I'd say make it based around skill instead of Koreanness.

 

[infy]

Even games like Eve (which has no leveling system) have some grinding (although a lot less than rpg mmo games), but because it is not an RPG, the grinding is really just to make money to afford to replace the ships you lose or to buy better ones - making it more rewarding, and less boring.

If everything was always given to you, It would probably feel pretty empty.

 

[Shamrock]

Even games like Eve (which has no leveling system) have some grinding (although a lot less than rpg mmo games), but because it is not an RPG, the grinding is really just to make money to afford to replace the ships you lose or to buy better ones - making it more rewarding, and less boring.

If everything was always given to you, It would probably feel pretty empty.

That's true. But I'm saying that they need to rethink it, because right now it's ridiculously boring.

 

[Shrike]

Even games like Eve (which has no leveling system) have some grinding (although a lot less than rpg mmo games), but because it is not an RPG, the grinding is really just to make money to afford to replace the ships you lose or to buy better ones - making it more rewarding, and less boring.

If everything was always given to you, It would probably feel pretty empty.

"Some grinding"? Seriously? Mining = shooting the same rocks, over and over again for HOURS! Belting = shooting the same pirate NPCs over and over again for HOURS! Mission running = the same missions, over and over again... well you get the picture.

Of course, Eve is a PVP game and even the economic metagame is PVP.

I want a PVE sandbox game with AMAZING graphics. I want that sandbox PVE MMO to have a LOT to do, TONS of advancement options: levels, skill levels, skill acquisition, crafting, stories that change, player created content, housing etc etc etc.

I DON'T want a level based progression that is great and then when you hit max level you gear grind.

I just want a big company to take the dive and develop a great quaility sandbox PVE MMO, change the nature of the game, evolve MMOS.

 

[infy]

"Some grinding"? Seriously? Mining = shooting the same rocks, over and over again for HOURS! Belting = shooting the same pirate NPCs over and over again for HOURS! Mission running = the same missions, over and over again... well you get the picture.

If you were doing that then you were playing the game wrong

The game is about risk vs reward - same as a real life would be in space.

Mining in a wormhole would hand you hundreds of millions each day or two, meaning less grind. Obviously miners like mining, so they would have no gripe with it. I was a miner at first and it was fun running a fleet of 10+- other miners in a wormhole. I dont consider it a grind if it is fun and you enjoy doing it.

Missions can be a grind if you are doing low reward ones. But if you do incursions or sleeper sites, you can make 50mil an hour to 400mil an hour (depending on luck). 400mil would last you a while so you dont have to grind until it has run out.

Belt ratting? I thought people only did that to find fights?

 

[Shrike]

Well, it all boils down to how "safe" from bully games you want your PVE action in Eve. Mining in policed space = low rewards = more hours grinding but it is "safer". Personally, I want to be able to use "skill" against NPCs in an increasing scale or risk vs reward. Going up against people with 7 year accounts with every skill available to them, has no skill involved and a lot of looking over your shoulder all the time.

I just want an MMO with sandbox PVE elements. Fantasy, Sci -Fi, cyberpunk, whatever, I just want it. The MMO genre needs it.

 

[Gimaru]

I still want an MMORPG with no magic.. Melee only Viking mmo!

 

[Kiruna]

Definitely agree with Shrike. For me, if the current fallout game could be made into a mmo would be ecstatically happy.
Obviously with a few tweaks, but the general game play would be the same. You can still do missions on your own or if in a group.
There isn't much grinding involved as there are so many different small missions or stories to branch out into. Classes are sorted into your raiders, mutants, NCR, Khan, Legion etc. You have free reign to do practically anything. You could even change faction, leave your clan and go to the other side. A quest could be made from that as you are on a wanted list within that clan. The main story can end, and a new chapter can begin in a different area, with still the option to travel back to old area.

A sandbox set up would be awesome. Not a grinding set up to kill x amount of mutated rats, but on going helping quests, story driven side plots, talking npc's, treasure hunts in abandoned vaults with a group.

 

[shadowfox]

"Some grinding"? Seriously? Mining = shooting the same rocks, over and over again for HOURS! Belting = shooting the same pirate NPCs over and over again for HOURS! Mission running = the same missions, over and over again... well you get the picture.

Of course, Eve is a PVP game and even the economic metagame is PVP.

I want a PVE sandbox game with AMAZING graphics. I want that sandbox PVE MMO to have a LOT to do, TONS of advancement options: levels, skill levels, skill acquisition, crafting, stories that change, player created content, housing etc etc etc.

I DON'T want a level based progression that is great and then when you hit max level you gear grind.

I just want a big company to take the dive and develop a great quaility sandbox PVE MMO, change the nature of the game, evolve MMOS.

Guildwars 2?

It's a weakness of the genre tbh - and I've never seen a way to get out of it - but I honestly think ArenaNet is taking a damn good shot at getting us out of the whole grind-rinse-repeat formula. The problem, of course, is that we're playing the waiting game at the moment, and won't be able to see the final result until it releases.

With regards to the OP's post - I found that GW had a lot less grind than most other MMOs I've played. It did, of course, have its fair share of kill x of this and pick up y of that - but the balance was a lot better - most of the missions at least attempted to tell a story.

I remember a few instances of being told to go and defend something, walking out of the outpost, and actually having to defend the outpost against critters that were actually, y'know, attacking, and not standing there admiring the clouds. And of course, it only happened once - the only time you needed to repeat was if you failed. Of course, failing didn't really impact the world as a whole, but you did tend to lose access to an entire chain of quests if you didn't finish. I think they are definitely building on what they started there.

 

[czc]

Definitely agree with Shrike. For me, if the current fallout game could be made into a mmo would be ecstatically happy.
Obviously with a few tweaks, but the general game play would be the same. You can still do missions on your own or if in a group.
There isn't much grinding involved as there are so many different small missions or stories to branch out into. Classes are sorted into your raiders, mutants, NCR, Khan, Legion etc. You have free reign to do practically anything. You could even change faction, leave your clan and go to the other side. A quest could be made from that as you are on a wanted list within that clan. The main story can end, and a new chapter can begin in a different area, with still the option to travel back to old area.

A sandbox set up would be awesome. Not a grinding set up to kill x amount of mutated rats, but on going helping quests, story driven side plots, talking npc's, treasure hunts in abandoned vaults with a group.

IIRC Someone is working on a fallout MMO. I remember the signups were open at one stage. I posted it on another forum.

Here it is: http://www.fallout-on-line.com/

 

[Shrike]

Definitely agree with Shrike. For me, if the current fallout game could be made into a mmo would be ecstatically happy.

You really should try out https://www.fallenearth.com then. It is almost exactly that, it has some sandbox elements, not as much as I would like but close. You can actually explore, find hidden quest NPCs and crafting nodes out in the wasteland. The crafting is built around creating items out of what you scavenge from the post-apocalyptic remains of technology, including knives, rifles, motorbikes and cars.

There are player created frontier towns, faction towns that can switch faction etc.

It is a great game, going to go back to it this weekend. Currently the game future is uncertain, it has jut been bought up by a major Free to Play company, so it looks like it is going the way of LOTRO/DDO.

Still, looking forward to seeing how the sandbox has changed in the last year and a half since it was launched.

 

[Kiruna]

coolies, I've been eyeing that out since you first mentioned a week or so ago.
Defiantly want to give it a go, waiting for next week. For some reason it fell beneath my radar, normally go crazy for post apocalyptic things. I've put more time into fallout than any mmo. (except gws)

 

[wheunis]

The "grind" you hate so much is the exact same system that gets you "addicted" to the game.

Skinner-box.

Without games conditioning you into the behaviour THAT THEY WANT from you, your brain would wake up and realize that you're actually just an idiot being dragged along by a moldy carrot on a broken stick.
At which point your conscious self SHOULD kick your own ass into intelligent retreat, but 99% of people also are unable to EVER accept that they may have, are currently, or ever could be, COMPLETE FUNCTIONAL RETARDS.

You're halfway there (to realization).
You know you hate the grind.
But you are unable to yet accept that the entire game is based on it. Top to bottom, without exception.
Further you unable to accept that you were suckered into it like all the other idiots, and thus unable to simply part with it and find new experiences that you actually do find enjoyable.

This is not just valid for WoW.
Any game anywhere that has a "growth" or "gear" increase system is 103% the same. Different face.

 

[Shrike]

Look, I am not saying that an MMO without ANY grind is possible. I am merely asking for a CHANGE in the grind routine that WoW has perfected i.e.: level up, good stories, fun learning new skills and abilities then..... end game = progressive carrots to enable you to jump for the next carrot. In this end game you keep doing the same thing over and over again: run dungeons/raids for gear.

There is no NEW game abilities or change of application of your abilities in this endgame, no new stories. I want something new for "end game", not the same that WoW/Rift and now it seems SWTOR has.

 

[Skinklizzard]

@shrike fallen earth says it has the accuracy of fps combat, whats it like lag wise? most mmos have a fairly high ping but are still playable, so how well does it work in a mmofps type setting?

 

[infy]

The "grind" you hate so much is the exact same system that gets you "addicted" to the game.

Skinner-box.

Without games conditioning you into the behaviour THAT THEY WANT from you, your brain would wake up and realize that you're actually just an idiot being dragged along by a moldy carrot on a broken stick.
At which point your conscious self SHOULD kick your own ass into intelligent retreat, but 99% of people also are unable to EVER accept that they may have, are currently, or ever could be, COMPLETE FUNCTIONAL RETARDS.

You're halfway there (to realization).
You know you hate the grind.
But you are unable to yet accept that the entire game is based on it. Top to bottom, without exception.
Further you unable to accept that you were suckered into it like all the other idiots, and thus unable to simply part with it and find new experiences that you actually do find enjoyable.

This is not just valid for WoW.
Any game anywhere that has a "growth" or "gear" increase system is 103% the same. Different face.

trolololololol

All games are addictive in their own way. If I think playing an MMO on a Tuesday night instead of going to do something lame like watching TV then thats my choice, and not because game developer is manipulating me. Hell... without these great distractions, all we as humans would do is work, make babies and then sit on the porch like rednecks spitting into a bottle. I'd rather be skinnered, thanks!

 

[Shrike]

@shrike fallen earth says it has the accuracy of fps combat, whats it like lag wise? most mmos have a fairly high ping but are still playable, so how well does it work in a mmofps type setting?

Well the target reticule has a large degree of error that it allows for and is quite big, so as long as you keep it on the target, it works. Of course, getting headshots is a lot harder with a big ping.