Recently ShoutCentral took it upon itself to once again try and address the various views concerning the MSSA (Mind Sports South Africa). Much was under scrutiny, but once again, answers seemed few and far between. Guest writer Flipi ‘alcardu’ Portman seeks to rectify this with an extensive 3 part interview of two of its head members.
Shoutcentral hosted a TeamSpeak interview with the President of the MSSA, Colin Webster, where various community members were also allowed a chance to raise a question to Colin. The interview was informative and long, with continued discussions for another 2 hours afterwards.
What follows here is an additional interview with Colin Webster, MSSA President, and Ryan van den Bergh, eGaming Board of Control chairman.
1. The MSSA has landed – SAWU – MSSA includes egaming? – To whom does the MSSA report?
Flipi says: To start I think we should get a bit of background information about the MSSA. When was the MSSA established?
Colin Webster says: The MSSA was founded in 1984 .However, it was not until 1990 that the MSSA became a member of NOCSA in 1990, and in 1991 that the MSSA became affiliated to the Confederation of South African Sports Confederation (COSAS).
Upon dissolution of the NSC in 1999, the MSSA played its part in supporting the formation of the South African Sports Commission in 1999. Once the South African Sports Commission was formed (by Act of Parliament) the MSSA again was accepted as a full member. Upon dissolution of the SA Sports Commission, the MSSA became a founding member of the South African Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee (SASCOC).
As the recognised National Federation for eSports, the MSSA is the sole authority for eSports in South Africa in terms of the Sports and Recreation Act (as amended). As a member of SASCOC, all the games promoted by Mind Sports South Africa are accredited as national sports.
Please note that the MSSA changed its name in 2005 from the South African Wargames Union (SAWU) to that of Mind Sports South Africa.
Flipi says: And when did the MSSA become the appointed body to govern egaming along with wargaming and boardgaming?
Colin Webster says: Please note that computer gaming was always included in the MSSA’s constitution.
Flipi says: was it part of SAWU’s constitution?
Colin Webster says: Yes
Flipi says: I see. So, as the appointed body to govern these disciplines, does the MSSA have to ‘renew’ its position? And to whom does the MSSA report to on a yearly basis?
Colin Webster says: As a federation, it does not need to ‘renew’ its position as such recognition depends on the position afforded to the MSSA by the Sport and Recreation Act (as amended). The MSSA has to report back to; 1. Its members, 2. The department of Sport, 3. SASCOC and, occasionally 4. The PMG (Parliamentary Monitoring Group) for Sport and Recreation.
Please note that members are the clubs and associations that are affiliated to the MSSA. Individuals cannot be members of the MSSA.
Flipi says: Are the MSSA’s yearly financial statements available? If so could you please furnish me with them?
Colin Webster says: As far as the financials are concerned I only have them on hard copy, I will have them scanned for you. In the meantime, as far as our income streams are concerned, we receive the following types of income: Registration fees, affiliation fees, entrance fees, sponsorships, and sometimes government subsidies. The MSSA is an Association not for gain. The MSSA certainly does not have a lot of money. Whatever comes in goes out again for gaming.
What may interest you, and your readers, is that the MSSA is driven entirely by volunteers. No one receives a salary of any sort. In fact office-bearers of an Association not for gain may not take salaries, etc.
Flipi says: No bonuses, salaries, payouts or benefits whatsoever?
Colin Webster says: None
Ryan van den Bergh says: We are all volunteers. No pay.
2. What is leading to the bad image of the MSSA?
Flipi says: I come from a part of the egaming community of SA which dislikes, and sometimes openly hates, the MSSA, be it for fictional or factual reasons. Where do you think the MSSA ‘went wrong’ to lead to this resentment? Or do you feel that the MSSA never went wrong, but if so then where would you say it all came from?
Colin Webster says: This is a difficult question, and one that I have put a lot of thought into.
Flipi says: I know it’s a difficult one, but no one seems to have asked you your thoughts on it… and I’m amazed that they haven’t.
Ryan van den Bergh says: I think that there are a number of factors that have lead to the current situation.
Colin Webster says: The biggest problem seems to be misinformation by certain individuals who see the MSSA as a threat because the MSSA is doing things differently, and, because, I believe, they see the MSSA as limiting their own profit making ventures in eSports.
Ryan van den Bergh says: I would agree with that Colin. That’s a big one.
Flipi says: What would the other factors be?
Ryan van den Bergh says: Well, I think that gamers have never seen any organisation quite like the MSSA. We are a non-profit organisation designed to look after gamers’ needs. They are used to people who take their cash and then break promises.
They think MSSA is like a ‘big brother’ instead of an organisation that is formed from gamers and for gamers
Flipi says: A big brother?
Ryan van den Bergh says: Well a sort of government organisation or parent that is dictating to them.
Colin Webster says: I would say that what I’ve stated above is the most important, as most of the vitriolic responses apropos the MSSA have always come from relatively few gamers – look how quiet the forums have become! What players seem to fail to realise is that the MSSA is all inclusive.
Flipi says: all inclusive?
Ryan van den Bergh says: MSSA is like human body and the organs are the clubs and players. The organs govern how the body works and functions.
Colin Webster says: The MSSA cannot turn away any members as long as their constitutions comply with that of the MSSA.
As you know, our biggest critic is without doubt Mr. Vic Soldo. However, if he started a club and it, met with all requirements, his club would be able to affiliate, and he could stand for ANY position.
3. Doesn’t the MSSA’s constitution requirements for its members = slavery?
Flipi says: I have seen one of those constitutions though, and if I remember a few of the lines looked very much like shackles to me. It sounded like in the end the MSSA would be able to dictate everything to such a member, based on the constitution.
Ryan van den Bergh says: remember what I said earlier Flipi, MSSA is a body and the clubs are the organs. More specifically MSSA is a democracy.
Colin Webster says: Remember, that the MSSA undertakes to respect every member’s autonomy.
“From the MSSA Constitution:
36. RECOGNITION OF AUTONOMY: The UNION undertakes to respect and recognise the autonomy of every member and institution to an exclusive jurisdiction over its own internal matters provided that the member shall function throughout in accordance with the spirit of the objectives of the UNION.”
Therefore, if the MSSA made a decision that did affect the internal workings of a member, such decision would be ultra vires and not enforceable. [Ultra vires = Unenforceable, of no strength]
Flipi says: So are you saying a club would be giving up power but still retaining it through its right to vote and elect members of committees/boards?
Ryan van den Bergh says: Interesting way of putting it, I wouldn’t say they give up anything. Every club governs itself. But when it comes to decisions of national importance then they communicate with one another through MSSA and their votes.
4. What is the MSSA’s plan to handle its image within the egaming community?
Flipi says: Coming back to the resentment I spoke of. Do you have any plans of action to ‘combat’ it so to speak?
Ryan van den Bergh says: Flipi I have been with MSSA for quite a while. I am extremely aware of the ‘resentment’ that you speak of and as a result I have spent (as has Colin and several other very high ranking MSSA officials) considerable periods of time working out why we are here and how to combat this problem. What seems to have worked well thus far, at least in certain circles, is to simply be patient and prove ourselves to our critics.
To give you an idea of the scope and non-monolithic structure of the MSSA you can look at us, we are not connected to a single member club in MSSA:
Ryan = Wits Wargames Club (Wits University)
Colin = Old Edwardians Society
Flipi says: What is the Old Edwardians Society?
Colin Webster says: Old Eds is the KES old boys club. King Edward VII High School. : KES:
5. How does eGaming fit in with wargaming and boardgaming? Are they truly connected?
Flipi says: Now, I am slightly familiar with the eSports section of the MSSA, but what about the Wargaming and Boardgaming members: are they ‘as an MSSA section’ aware of the situation from the egaming side? Has there been internal discussion concerning their opinion of it maybe?
Colin Webster says: Yes, all committee members are aware.
Ryan van den Bergh says: MSSA’s Management Board contains members from all three disciplines. So yes they are aware.
Are they going to interfere, as some people in eSports believe? No to be honest I don’t think they really care. The disciplines tend to stick to their own business.
Flipi says: This begs a question I had during the other night’s discussion. eGamers don’t have an interest in governing boardgaming/wargaming, and similarly you agree they probably don’t have an interest in governing eGamers. Does this not show on a base flaw in the MSSA’s reach? That it groups different worlds too closely?
Colin Webster says: They are not different worlds. There is a great deal of cross-pollination among all gamers. Even at OC, Mayhem, Fraglan, etc, you see the LAN’s catering for card games, Warhammer, etc
Flipi says: Do you feel they share similar worlds in that they are similarly structured disciplines? Is it not similar to saying rugby and swimming are grouped?
Colin Webster says: No, but swimming is grouped with water polo, synchronised swimming and diving. The games that we cater for are definitely grouped. eSports is really just a more techno savvy way of playing the ‘older’ wargames and board games.
Ryan van den Bergh says: Flipi, correct me if I’m wrong, but your real question is: Why is a War/Board Gaming imposing their values on eSports? They are completely different and they will change how we work.
Flipi says: Yes Ryan that’s a very direct way of saying it.
Ryan van den Bergh says: look, when we get down to it. Have a look at SA Rugby, Cricket, etc. You need people who understand the crappy admin world.
But my point is: the Boards of Control (who consist of reps from every club) are usually the gamers. The Management Board deals with general issues that are the same for all 3 disciplines. And can be elected by anyone so when you view the MSSA organisation from a macro perspective, it makes perfect logical sense to have all 3 together. All need colours, finances, sponsorship and a club structure. But when we get down to eSports, we separate it based on the clubs that get involved.
Flipi says: Right now, August 09, what is the head count of the MSSA? And how is it spread out between the 3 sections?
Colin Webster says: At the moment, there are 15 eSports clubs, 10 wargames clubs and 12 board games clubs. Roughly speaking in terms of gamers (and I stand here open to correction as this is not my portfolio), the clubs represent about 40000 players in board games, just shy of 500 in figure games and about 1000 in eSports. However, some of the clubs never vote.
Flipi says: 40 thousand is a big number.
Colin Webster says: yes, but it is also why we do not have a problem with the government
6. A clan is not a club. Is the level of formality (red tape) in the MSSA realistic?
Flipi says: Now something very close to my heart. The MSSA refers to a member as a club, in gaming terms this would be a clan. MaXx during his discussion swapped to and fro a lot, saying you can take it either way, but I do not agree at all. In the MSSA, a club as a committee, with certain required positions to be filled. I have here the SGA’s constitution [Stellenbosch Gaming Society]. Just to refresh myself again. To be frank, clans don’t work this way. Clans don’t function at this level of formality.
Colin Webster says: A clan can constitutionalise itself to become a club. Or a clan can work with other clans to be in the same club
Flipi says: Yes but you have requirements for that constitution do you not?
Colin Webster says: Included in the pack I sent you is a proforma constitution (that even OGA) used. The legal requirements for any Association not for gain are that there must be plurality of membership. Therefore it can be as low as three with no maximum number.
Flipi says: But do you expect clans, sometimes formed by minors aged 14-16, to conform to this level of formality? To hold AGM’s and structured internal channels. How do you expect them to do this?
Colin Webster says: That is why we are pushing into schools. To have school clubs with many different clans. Just to give you an idea, Pretoria Boys has a club of over 120 players.
Ryan van den Bergh says: We have a number of school clubs which are growing almost weekly. The teachers manage those clubs very well. When it comes to more junior clubs, schools are very good. Occasionally we have those joining bigger clubs, e.g. Club Xploit. Part of the experience of joining a ‘formal’ club is to teach the guys how things work. It’s a learning experience. You learn far more than just gaming.
Colin Webster says: Not only that, but because clubs are legal entities, sponsors are more willing to sponsor.
Flipi says: Concerning this formality, are there any options open to you to lower it? For the clans without a teacher or own experience. Are you functioning at the lowest level already? Also, would you say you are also providing school goers a chance to grow and learn about the workings of the world out there, apart from gaming?
Ryan van den Bergh says: the first part, I will leave to Colin. In terms of the second: yes, you learn a lot of life skills in a formal environment like MSSA. You go to provincial and national comps. You have the opportunity to get colours. You can meet very influential people in sport. You also learn about things that are not so obvious such as how meetings work (agendas, minutes, etc). How to deal with inter-personal conflict with other club members, Public Relations, Sponsorship
It is an opportunity, never mind what happens if you become a Protea.
Colin Webster says: Yes, the MSSA is exploring a temporary registered player status that will allow greater participation. However there are pitfalls with such a status as it will come without voting rights etc.
Don’t forget that the age of majority in SA is now 18, so, any 18 year olds may legally run clubs.
Interview courtesy of Pantheon Gaming
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