Ellen Page's moving speech at the Time to Thrive Conference

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Neo said:
You don't seem to get the idea that people have the right to disagree with you. If you cannot grasp the concept, then I fear any further debate is lost on you. Do you have a problem with people who disagree with your views which you deem to be absolute (apparently)? Hitler had the same problem. Then he killed people. Don't go there.

Only ONE person on here gave a valid, grown-up response to my initial comment in this thread. Which amounted to "Fine, you don't agree with their lifestyle - just don't go moerring them because of it". Which I lol'ed because it's a perfect, sane reply. But no....the gay-hating-bible-bashing-troll has to pay for his views.
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See here.

And also here.

And I'll add this, too.

You're insistence of flipping this as a "us" versus "you" thing is textbook. Unfortunately, again, it's not your position to dictate that.

Also, I can't believe you resorted to Godwin's law for a second time.

Your views are rooted in your religious beliefs, so there's no way to challenge them without challenging your religious views. The unfortunate part about that is the fact you hold those views as sacrosanct. So basically you will not be convinced - irrespective of whatever truth you're presented with - thus making interacting with you a monumental waste of time.

I have a feeling that we're all getting super-trolled here. In any event, this "debate" has gone absolutely nowhere. Welcome to the block list, Neo.
 
Neo said:
You don't seem to get the idea that people have the right to disagree with you. If you cannot grasp the concept, then I fear any further debate is lost on you. Do you have a problem with people who disagree with your views which you deem to be absolute (apparently)? Hitler had the same problem. Then he killed people. Don't go there.

Only ONE person on here gave a valid, grown-up response to my initial comment in this thread. Which amounted to "Fine, you don't agree with their lifestyle - just don't go moerring them because of it". Which I lol'ed because it's a perfect, sane reply. But no....the gay-hating-bible-bashing-troll has to pay for his views.

I apologise for ONE thing only in my replies to this thread: for bringing in religion. However, I didn't know simply mentioning it would result in the explosion that did. So, my apologies to Solitude. I admit that was uncalled for and bad form on my part.

As for everyone else: if you cannot bring yourself to respect someone else's views. There's no way they'll respect yours. End of story.
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Look, I cannot speak for everyone here. However personally I believe that you have right to have whatever opinion you choose to have (we can argue the validity of that opinion but I digress). The matter of that opinion is not what bothers me about you; it's the way you choose to express that opinion to the world.

Does the Bible speak against homosexuality? Yes

Does the Bible give you the right to pass judgement ? NO. Only God himself has that right.

Does the Bible also condemn those who place themselves above others merely because they maintain the "Law" ? Yes! Jesus spoke heavily against merely obeying a list of laws; and was more concerned with loving your neighbour.

Matter of fact; no one can judge another based purely off of the greatness of their "sin"; for "If righteousness come by the law, then
Christ is dead in vain." — Gal. 2:21

Once again; you are free to disagree but are NOT free to pass judgement
 
se7en said:
wow, that was an emotional speech. she is amazing :) iv never seen someone with that much courage to stand up to the world and express themselves.well done Ellen! :)
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It really is a bold and beautiful move, the bigger thing to take from this is that as more celebrities or prominent figures open up, the ripple effect will be less people living in fear because of who they are and how society will react to who they are.
 
Look, guys, we're all supposed to try and get along. But you're bashing the guy who doesn't support homosexuality, just to moan about society that bashes people who do support homosexuality. That's very inverse.

To anyone that doesn't like what the Christian religion has to say about the subject - that's how it is. I'm not going to make up lies to make people feel better. You don't have to accept the religion, no one is forcing you to. Again, that's not what this thread is about - so let's not make things worse by climbing into each other's religious beliefs.

I saw a post the other day which really sums up my attitude towards this. It reads:

"Our culture has accepted two huge lies. The first is that if you disagree with someone's lifestyle, you must fear or hate them. The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do. Both are nonsense. You don't have to compromise convictions to be compassionate."

So, as the above states, as soon as gay/lesbian/nigerians believe there ARE people who do not agree with them, but still respect them as people, things will not change. You keep making the statement that "society" is the single factor that needs to change for people of alternative lifestyles to live a happier life, when it's clear to me that at least some of the faulty mindset is on your own side as well. Change needs to happen at both ends. This thread made it very obvious.
 
Neo said:
Look, guys, we're all supposed to try and get along. But you're bashing the guy who doesn't support homosexuality, just to moan about society that bashes people who do support homosexuality. That's very inverse.

To anyone that doesn't like what the Christian religion has to say about the subject - that's how it is. I'm not going to make up lies to make people feel better. You don't have to accept the religion, no one is forcing you to. Again, that's not what this thread is about - so let's not make things worse by climbing into each other's religious beliefs.

I saw a post the other day which really sums up my attitude towards this. It reads:

"Our culture has accepted two huge lies. The first is that if you disagree with someone's lifestyle, you must fear or hate them. The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do. Both are nonsense. You don't have to compromise convictions to be compassionate."

So, as the above states, as soon as gay/lesbian/nigerians believe there ARE people who do not agree with them, but still respect them as people, things will not change. You keep making the statement that "society" is the single factor that needs to change for people of alternative lifestyles to live a happier life, when it's clear to me that at least some of the faulty mindset is on your own side as well. Change needs to happen at both ends. This thread made it very obvious.
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I have no issue with people that do not agree with my lifestyle but respect me. My mother is one of them. I know she would prefer I were straight, but she does not treat me any differently because of that. I do have an issue with being told I chose this life, despite many people in this thread having told you it is not a choice. The fact that you insist on it being a choice despite everyone telling you how obviously offensive that is, shows you do not respect us.
 
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I'll give it a go:

Neo said:
So far, no one has been able to formulate an adult reply to this simple question: Why is my decision to not agree with someone else's lifestyle incorrect and unacceptable?
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This is merely a framework for a statement and speaks nothing to the context. It's when you start to qualify elements of it, such as "lifestyle", that the statement has real implications for the people it concerns. The framework is also simplistic as it provides no reasoning.

Here's an easy one to start with:

"I disagree with the "lifestyle" choices of a serial killer".

The rational and logical reasons for this include that it directly harms individuals and has harmful knock-on effects for society. The fact that I want to live and do not want to be tortured and killed, and since most people share that base survival instinct, can be used to come to a social agreement that a murderous lifestyle is incorrect and unacceptable.

Now, onto the homosexual topic:

"I disagree with the "lifestyle" choices of a homosexual".

Your good reason that your religion says "its bad therefore its bad" is circular, illogical, and irrational - it's merely an appeal to the authority of the bible.

You are welcome to voice your opinion on the matter and back up where you are coming from. Those who disagree with your opinion are welcome to voice that as well.

The "respect my opinion" claim is a red herring - people afford each other the respect to share their opinions. Then, we afford each other the respect to disagree with each other. At best everyone should agree to disagree.

The content of the opinion itself doesn't' automagically get given respect (to bring up the flimsy Hitler trope again - he was of the opinion that all Jews should be gassed; must we automatically respect that notion because someone said it?)


Now, let me take a stab at why people don't respect Neo's particular opinion on homosexuality. The bottom line underlying biblical assertion is that homosexuals are committing sin and will burn in hell for it (unless they repent at the 11th hour, amnirite?), because it says so in the bible.

For any of that to be valid, first we have to establish if the biblical claims have any truthful merit. That's a very big hurdle to have to overcome.

If you make a claim about something being bad and harmful to society but cannot back it up with something concrete (circular logic doesn't count) then it is equally valid to dismiss the claim without giving it much consideration.

So in summary, Neo is welcome to have his "decision to not agree with someone else's lifestyle". Respondents are welcome to their opinion that his stance is incorrect and unacceptable.

Settling on who's right and who's wrong (especially in this particular topic) isn't going to come easily so if you are going to engage in the debate on the merits of your opinion, you can't cry foul when people challenge it.

That's my 2cents - hope it's coherent, trying to sneak in a reply between work and this thread is moving quickly.
 
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N - I don't like gay people, but don't mind. It's their choice anyway.
U - Okay cool you're entitled to your views...but being gay isn't a choice...
N - It is - my religion says so.
U - No, I'm gay, I know wasn't a choice.
N - You're wrong.
U - Based on what? Maybe your religion has it wrong.
N - STOP OPPRESSING MY RELIGION!

A summary.

Also I love James. Platonically. #NoHomo
 
Thanks James - (whilst all of that is still settling in) - I once again would like to point out that I think the real depression of this thread started when people slandered religion again. So, again, can I ask that we stop doing that as a community, please? I also did not openly "judge" any gay people here. I merely stated my religion does not agree with it (and it doesn't. facts are facts). You chose to read into that what you wanted.

I agree 100% with that you said. If you're going to post about something, be prepared when someone comes out with a counter-argument. All I did was post a simple reply and I got a negative rep with an insulting comment from the person who did it. That person, ol' Clive, wasn't willing to post his comment in the open forum - but rather insisted to make it personal from the word "go". That's not in the spirit of this forum.

As a side note, I don't pay any notice to my Hitler references. I actually had no idea there was a meme about it. I don't base my arguments around internet culture. So that was purely coincidental.
 
I agree that religious discussions are a quick way to make people uncomfortable, but the forum is open to pretty much all topics (aside from illegal stuff like how to commit piracy) so we can't enact a rule prohibiting the discussions.

If a tacit agreement is formed to avoid religious debates, then that's great. I think that was already existent, but occasionally it surfaces.
 
Neo, regarding the whole "being gay is choice thing", If it was a choice that means you could wake up tomorrow and choose to be attracted to other men ? But you wont be, its just how you are, you arent attracted to other men and the thought of it might even give you the shivers.

Now its the exact same the other way around, if you are gay, that same drive that makes you not attracted to other men, will instead then attract you to other men / woman.

Its just what you are, you cant change it.
 
Neo said:
Thanks James - (whilst all of that is still settling in) - I once again would like to point out that I think the real depression of this thread started when people slandered religion again. So, again, can I ask that we stop doing that as a community, please? I also did not openly "judge" any gay people here. I merely stated my religion does not agree with it (and it doesn't. facts are facts). You chose to read into that what you wanted.

I agree 100% with that you said. If you're going to post about something, be prepared when someone comes out with a counter-argument. All I did was post a simple reply and I got a negative rep with an insulting comment from the person who did it. That person, ol' Clive, wasn't willing to post his comment in the open forum - but rather insisted to make it personal from the word "go". That's not in the spirit of this forum.
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Guy, you're contradicting yourself twice over.

One post you say your religion does not agree with it, and the next you say its you who do not agree with it.

Which one is it?
 
Neo said:
That person, ol' Clive, wasn't willing to post his comment in the open forum - but rather insisted to make it personal from the word "go". That's not in the spirit of this forum.
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This person, ol' Clive, added a comment to the neg-rep that read "What do I think about that? I think you should get your head out of the sand.", which is the exact same thing I've been saying in this thread from the get-go, so maybe you should stop trying to twist the truth in order to martyr yourself.

You know what galls me here? The fact that you insist we're slandering religion, when we're actually just disrespecting your particular brand of religion. Qornea right here is also a christian, ask him whether as a christian, he feels victimized by the posts in this thread?

You can play the victim card all you like old chap, but you're not the victim here.
 
qornea said:
N - I don't like gay people, but don't mind. It's their choice anyway.
U - Okay cool you're entitled to your views...but being gay isn't a choice...
N - It is - my religion says so.
U - No, I'm gay, I know wasn't a choice.
N - You're wrong.
U - Based on what? Maybe your religion has it wrong.
N - STOP OPPRESSING MY RELIGION!

A summary.

Also I love James. Platonically. #NoHomo
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Cool summary. When is the movie coming out :p
 
I have personal reasons why I don't agree with it as well. And they're just that - Personal. Nothing that anyone needs to lose sleep over.

If you're going to debate with a Christian about homosexuality and you're going to try and defend it, then both parties are bound to get very offended. Trust me on this. Homosexuality is a very sensitive topic, especially to Christians since it even managed to split the church body even further. But, you guys won't care about that and I won't bore you. Just try and respect someone when they don't agree with your views. It doesn't mean that person doesn't respect you as a PERSON.

- - - - - - - - - - Double Post Merged - - - - - - - - - -

Clive Woofer said:
This person, ol' Clive, added a comment to the neg-rep that read "What do I think about that? I think you should get your head out of the sand.", which is the exact same thing I've been saying in this thread from the get-go, so maybe you should stop trying to twist the truth in order to martyr yourself.

You know what galls me here? The fact that you insist we're slandering religion, when we're actually just disrespecting your particular brand of religion. Qornea right here is also a christian, ask him whether as a christian, he feels victimized by the posts in this thread?

You can play the victim card all you like old chap, but you're not the victim here.
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I'm sorry if you feel offended or galled. But like James said, don't post something if you're not prepared to hear someone else's opinion on it. What I'm asking for is a little respect when doing so and not go and make things personal - which is exactly what you did.
 
Neo said:
I'm sorry if you feel offended or galled. But like James said, don't post something if you're not prepared to hear someone else's opinion on it. What I'm asking for is a little respect when doing so and not go and make things personal - which is exactly what you did.
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Well ain't that just peachy. Once again you play the victim. You're the one who told homosexual people that they're wrong and they made a choice, and that they're going to hell to top it off and now we should respect you and not make it personal?

You don't have to agree with homosexuality, but if you're going to voice opinions based on lies and inaccuracies, don't cry blue murder when you're called out on it. Respect is earned. You don't deserve respect simply because it's your opinion.

Also, if you're going to debate about homosexuality to homosexuals, don't be surprised if you're treated with disdain. You're not a victim, you're an asshole parading his homophobia under the banner of religion.

I have personal reasons why I don't agree with it as well. And they're just that - Personal. Nothing that anyone needs to lose sleep over.
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Case in point. Religion is just a convenient vehicle for your homophobia.
 
Neo said:
But like James said, don't post something if you're not prepared to hear someone else's opinion on it.
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This whole thread is summed up here.
The same goes for you man.

You posted how you and your religion are against homosexuality and that you believe it to be choice. Then you heard other people's views.
They felt offended by your comment on "choice" and you in turn were offended by their comments on your religion.
You cast the first stone so now turn the other cheek.

It's a circle jerk that'll never stop and that is still going on world wide every minute of every day.
 
Listen....quote where I said that they're going to Hell. Go on. Quote my direct words. You sir, have a problem with my religion as it goes against what you believe and it introduces accountability. There's absolutely nothing strange about that.

The whole time I thought you had a problem with my opinion - but it turns out you're just another Christian hating atheist. That puts everything you said in a totally different light. Thanks! :)
 
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Okay guys, I'm going to draw a line in the sand. The religious element of this debate ends now or I will lock the thread.

Alternatively, I propose we lock the thread and start a fresh one with Ellen's speech and try again without the well known religious stance on homosexuality creeping in.

Let's not use comics for strawman attacks, especially when those broadly attack a social group. We wouldn't tolerate it for racism, homosexuality, and atheism, so religion is afforded the same courtesy. The offending images will be removed.

Your move forum members :P
 
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