RIP Nelson mandela

Mister 44 said:
The bottom line is this:
Do you think this country would have been better or worse without him?
For me, this is a no-brainer.
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We will never know. I'm not going to defend apartheid (I'll never do that), but I believe that this country has, undeniably gone to hell in a handbasket. Like it or not, Mandela was the leader of the current political party that is irreparably destroying South Africa. One cannot help but wonder if this is what he actually envisioned since 1994. Is he happy with what's happened to this country? Or did he maybe, regret getting the ANC into power in the first place. At the end of they day, this country's current status/issues is a direct result of his actions. I would not be proud of that.

I personally believe that this country would have been fantastic today if people like Mandela managed to keep his own vendettas aside and do what he "promised" to do, and that was to end apartheid and get this country working together. However, his party (again, of which he was the leader) has never done anything to that extent. In fact, that only thing that they've done was to completely reverse apartheid's ugly head and focussed the prosperity of the country onto themselves. Onto a single racial profile.

Did Mandela really leave anything positive in South Africa? Yes. He increased the tourism numbers a bit and gave some pigeons in Sandton Square something to poop on.
 
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Neo said:
Nope. Can't do it. I cannot bring myself to celebrate the life.....
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While it's your prerogative, and I did read your note about trolling and offending, this thread is expressly for celebrating his life. I don't think this thread is the time or place. My personal view on it is similar to Eugene's. Given the circumstances, I can't say I wouldn't have done something similar.
 
Avatar said:
While it's your prerogative, and I did read your note about trolling and offending, this thread is expressly for celebrating his life. I don't think this thread is the time or place. My personal view on it is similar to Eugene's. Given the circumstances, I can't say I wouldn't have done something similar.
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Well, without starting an argument, this thread is pretty much open to anyone. My views are based on facts from history. I'm not making anything up. Some people revere him as a saint, when in truth he was nothing of the kind. But, I also have to come to terms with the fact that this is a public forum and no single view or opinion can be exclusively permitted in its threads. Different people have different views, and a public online forum must allow for those views - especially if they are credible.

I think threads like these try and celebrate what someone could have been, instead of what they were. The "Madiba" you're mourning is the media-created image, and it's a far fetch from the actual person. If you say that you would have done the same, then read this: http://www.amren.com/features/2013/12/mandela-white-genocide-with-a-whimper/
 
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Neo said:
Well, without starting an argument, this thread is pretty much open to anyone. My views are based on facts from history. I'm not making anything up. Some people revere him as a saint, when in truth he was nothing of the kind. But, I also have to come to terms with the fact that this is a public forum and no single view or opinion can be exclusively permitted in its threads. Different people have different views, and a public online forum must allow for those views - especially if they are credible.

I think threads like these try and celebrate what someone could have been, instead of what they were. If you say that you would have done the same, then read this: http://www.amren.com/features/2013/12/mandela-white-genocide-with-a-whimper/
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One thing you need to remember that this is the internet. It's filled with a lot of people who don't run off of "facts". They're not necessarily trolls, they're just who they are in real life. Fact or not, they'll believe what they want because they can. And if they want to ignore the facts, then that's their right to as well.
 
AcidRaZor said:
One thing you need to remember that this is the internet. It's filled with a lot of people who don't run off of "facts". They're not necessarily trolls, they're just who they are in real life. Fact or not, they'll believe what they want because they can. And if they want to ignore the facts, then that's their right to as well.
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100% correct mate. However, people don't just act like that on the internet - they're like that in their daily, normal lives. Facts don't seem to mean anything any more. People believe what they want if it's convenient for them. Media in general dictates what people think about anything and anyone in today's society. It's a very flawed world view, which is why we're sitting with this mess today.
 
Calling Mandela a terrorist is like being branded a DRUG ADDICT for smoking some pot once in our life, 40 years ago!!!!

He spent 27 years in jail, more time than most people on here have spent on earth. He came out and changed the perception of all South Africans. He formed part in a peaceful take over of a new political movement of a different race. If this did not happen, it could have gone another very different and brutal way.

If you are saying "good riddance" to any other human being's passing, you are a doos and you deserve absolutely no respect from anyone on this planet. I will piss on your grave.
 
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TBlaar said:
Calling Mandela a terrorist is like being branded a DRUG ADDICT for smoking some pot once in our life, 40 years ago!!!!

He spent 27 years in jail, more time than most people on here have spent on earth. He came out and changed the perception of all South Africans. He formed part in a peaceful take over of a new political movement of a different race. If this did not happen, it could have gone another very different and brutal way.

If you are saying "good riddance" to any other human being's passing, you are a doos and you deserve absolutely no respect from anyone on this planet. I will piss on your grave.
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I think there are exceptions to that rule, like if it's Hitler. or Pol Potts. or Mugabe
 
Errr....TBlaar....your comment is very biased indeed. Smoking a joint is not the same as killing women and children. You're severely lacking perspective here. The only "exception" to the rule, like Malice pointed out, seems to be personal opinion based on what's popular. That's a lemming approach if I've ever seen it. Trust me, if ANY of those people he killed were somehow part of your friends or family, you'd have a very different opinion today.

What you're saying is that it doesn't matter what a person did, as long as it's "a long time ago". Wow...just, wow.
 
Neo said:
Nope. Can't do it. I cannot bring myself to celebrate the life of a terrorist who was responsible for killing innocent civilians including women and children. Many of you will find my comment "in bad taste" - when in actual fact it's the truth that stings. The hypocrisy being showcased today is extraordinary.

Maybe what most people are celebrating is his post-apartheid symbolism. Sadly his murderous acts which got him to that image is being quietly ignored like a huge white elephant in the corner of the room. I suppose people only remember, see and hear what they want to.

Note: I'm not here to troll, and I'm sorry if I offend someone. It's just that someone needs to say something. Seriously, we can't all be naive about this stuff. And no, my thoughts around this are not racially motivated. I just seem to know my history a lot better than others and I don't easily forget acts which kill women and children. I don't care what the person's motives were. He's standing in front of God now and he has a metric-buttload to explain. That's for sure. No more lies.
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What you fail to recognize is that without his influence there is a good chance we would not have had a country in any shape or form left. You've made your views quite clear in other threads. No one says ignore the past but you are blinded by it. Pity, but I guess that you are going to leave the country in any event, so what do you care!
 
He signed off on the deaths of innocent people, lots of them

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists. Here are some highlights

-Church Street West, Pretoria, on the 20 May 1983

-Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985

-Krugersdorp Magistrate’s Court, 17 March 1988

-Durban Pick ‘n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986

-Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988 – limpet mine killed ANC terrorist M O Maponya instead

-Johannesburg Magistrate’s Court, 20 May 1987

-Roodepoort Standard Bank 3 June, 1988

Tellingly, not only did Mandela refuse to renounce violence, Amnesty refused to take his case stating “[the] movement recorded that it could not give the name of ‘Prisoner of Conscience’ to anyone associated with violence, even though as in ‘conventional warfare’ a degree of restraint may be exercised.”
 
http://s1.cdn.memeburn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/The-web-the-day-Nelson-Mandela-died.jpg



The-web-the-day-Nelson-Mandela-died.jpg
 
Well, at the end of the day - I think the majority of posts in here were quite constructive. Apart from the one or two "usual suspects" who make things personal (hey Fivel ol' chum?) this was a pretty good thread. In the end, the man is departed and what he left behind is nothing to be proud of. SA went from a 1st World status that could literally give an "up yours" salute to any other country including the US, to a 3rd World crumbling mess much like Zimbabwe. May he rest in peace, because his cronies will carry on without issue.
 
Quite a few people are missing the point - Mandela as a president did something many rulers/presidents failed to do. He sought a peaceful resolution, that didn't end up in a mass genocide or a dictatorship. Although we are nearing the state that Zim is in, we should all be thankful to Mandela that we are alive and well, more or less.

He was a terrorist, yes, but he was a terrorist fighting for a good cause. If freedom isn't worth fighting for, then I don't know what is.

I for one am thankful that he has finally passed away, the poor man has suffered enough. May he rest in piece.
 
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Neo said:
Well, at the end of the day - I think the majority of posts in here were quite constructive. Apart from the one or two "usual suspects" who make things personal (hey Fivel ol' chum?) this was a pretty good thread. In the end, the man is departed and what he left behind is nothing to be proud of. SA went from a 1st World status that could literally give an "up yours" salute to any other country including the US, to a 3rd World crumbling mess much like Zimbabwe. May he rest in peace, because his cronies will carry on without issue.
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I try, but cannot see a single constructive comment in any of your posts - and yes I am biased pretty much to anything you post. Yes it was a good thread until you got involved.

What you fail to grasp is that Mandela, while still very influential till the end, has not been running the country for a while and he would most likely also admit that the country is not where it should be. We have never been a 1st world country overall, we have pockets of 1st world.
 
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